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ironnerd88 11-19-2012 12:08 AM

Back to Basics League? (Blow-back only)
So... here is what happened. I was talkin' to a friend and I mentioned that there is (was?) a Pump Class and Stock Class. And even he thought it was kinda weird that there was really nothing in between pump and full blown freak-on top end play...

We discussed limited play and all that over coffee and pizza, and after he returned to his place, I had an odd thought.

For now, I'll just call it "BLOW-BACK" class. Equipment rules are really simple.

Marker: Mechanical Blow-Back only, one ball per trigger pull - no RT, no Batteries
Hopper: Non-agitating, gravity feed only, no batteries
Air Source: HPA or CO2 - no size restrictions
Optional: limited paint (hopper-ball).

It's just an odd thought, but in a twisted way, it makes sense. There are a bazillion old mech-blowbacks out there just gathering dust - and this class would be an excuse to put them to work. Also, it's not a tech-race; the guns and hoppers are basic and inexpensive (which may help bring new players to tourneys) and easy to maintain. The lack of agitator hoppers and the inherent limitations of the blow-back design will limit the rate-of-fire in a very simple and easily-enforced manner.

Both top-end guns and many Stock/Pump guns are actually pretty expensive, but a basic Mech-Blowback can still be had (even new) pretty cheap - less than even a new Trracer. This may serve as a way to allow a few people to try out the whole tourney thing in a less-expensive and less-intimidating event.


Falcon16 11-19-2012 12:44 AM

Sounds like it would be a neat tourney format. Really would encourage movement and tactics over firepower. Not to mention introducing the element of having to shake the hopper every so often and you can't shoot too fast or chop chop chop. I'd actually try a tourney like this. Heck I'd buy a cheap tippman or something just to play a tourney like this. I might throw in a no pod packs rule though. i think a hopperball style tourney would be interesting. That and perhaps a must be bone stock rule too. That way you get no arms race with barrel kits and such. Heck why not make it everyone buys into the tourney by purchasing a stock Koas and a steelie plus a shake and shoot hopper.

James_Blond 11-19-2012 12:53 AM

don't own any blowbacks anymore. If you just limited it to gravity fed 200rnd hopper ball then any mech would work, like my blazer for instance. The imposition of the hopper restriction nullifies pretty much any firepower advantage regardless of gun type, except for mags with level ten bolts or guns with eyes or low impact bolts like the new enemy.

I'd play a hopper ball tourney like that with either my blazer or cocker. Would be tons of fun, the only difference to me would be not using a 9v or 12v revy.

Marmaduke 11-19-2012 01:04 AM

I think that this may work for a "young guns" division. However, I don't feel that there will be a lot of support from current tournament players (and thus current tournament leagues). Maybe it's because I'm young, but I love the current PSP (actually enjoyed 15bps more), and wouldn't want it to change.

I don't really think limiting players to semi-mechs is going to change the game mechanics too much either. 12.5bps, or 6bps, I'm still not going to run through your lane. Thus, the game won't be sped up by movement. The only exception I see to this would be off the break. But then again, that's less players being dropped off the break, and thus more gunfighting, equalling a slower game.

I actually think it would slow it down. Where having PSP ramp (or even walking a semi) really helps is when trying to shoot that sliver of a hopper or pod pack sticking out of a bunker. Taking this advantage away may actually slow the game down since players won't be able to put as much paint downrange. Before you argue that (you should learn to shoot better), it's not about that. If you're playing at competitive level (thinking D4 or above), you know how to shoot your marker. It's the inherent inaccuracy of paintballs that's going to be fighting against you here. Good luck to Falcon16 with that cheap Tippmann's stock barrel trying to even hit the bunker his opponent is behind.

Same example of slowing down the ROF comes to play with gunfighting. You're going to have to really battle dominance when the opposing player is able to put more paint at you.

What's going to speed up a game? Two guys shooting 12.5 bps at one another, or two guys basically one-balling one another? Probably the 12.5 bps.

Kind of going along with what I've said, I think it lead players to play at a lower skill level. I now don't have to play my bunker as tight, and can be an overall sloppier player.

I'd play it for fun, and to switch things up (kinda like I play occasional pump tournaments). I'd also use it as a tool for younger players to work on the fundamentals and build confidence. However, I just don't see it catching on in the competitive paintball world.

Just my two cents. I promise I don't mean to come off as a jerk, so I do apologize if I sound harsh.

However, here's what a local field is doing. Somewhat similar to your concept. :)

DBS Indoor Hopperball Tournament

The Flounder 11-19-2012 01:09 AM

Just call it Amish class. Nothing electric.

mikeds80 11-19-2012 08:19 AM

Sounds like you just invented the early 90s. :o

Stilgar 11-19-2012 08:41 AM

Just played a tourney where any gun was allowed and players could carry all the paint they wanted but were limited to 60rnd max hoppers.

It worked out pretty good. It was fun being able to "out shoot" an electro using my pump and stickfeed!

The hopper limit really kept the volume reasonable but let everyone play with their own guns and gear.

ironnerd88 11-19-2012 09:07 AM


Originally Posted by The Flounder (Post 2537931)
Just call it Amish class. Nothing electric.

VERY nice! Dunno why I didn't think of that - much better than Steam Punk.


Originally Posted by mikeds80 (Post 2538022)
Sounds like you just invented the early 90s. :o

I know! FREAKY how they stole my idea back then! :)
It's the really just best compromise I could find that really put everyone on an equal footing equipment-wise, and forced the players to "Play".

Marmaduke - Valuable and insightful input, but you're coming at this from the wrong direction. The point is to slow the game down a bit. Faster than pump or stock, slower than full-on electro; a middle ground. And as Falcon_16 said "Really would encourage movement and tactics over firepower" - but to a lesser extent than Stock-class.

Originally Posted by Marmaduke (Post 2537923)
Good luck to Falcon16 with that cheap Tippmann's stock barrel trying to even hit the bunker his opponent is behind.

Stock barrel? Oh no... I don't think there would be many of those :) But I see where you are going. It's easy to spend as much on a barrel as it is for an inexpensive gun. Still, I've shot some nice groups out of a stock barrel - you just never know.

James_Blond - I had considered that (and it would be a great equalizer), but "hopper-ball" and limited paint already have their advocates. This is just for the lowly blowback. Hey, I'm even cutting my favorite gun out of this (ICD Desert Fox). And if you don't have a BB, they are really inexpensive (even new -see below).

Falcon-16 - limiting this to hopper-ball would be excellent (and preferred), but I didn't want to push the paradigm too hard. Talk about a cheap tourney series: A 5-man team would use a case every 2 games, if they all shot every ball they had in each game. Times is tough... A blue-collar paintball series might have some appeal...

Stilgar - I agree, limited paint is AWESOME (it is how I always play). But I felt a valuable part of our history was being ignored. Blow-backs are still pretty cool guns and are still fun to play with - so why not make them the centerpiece of a competition? Besides (like I said earlier) there are bazillions of the darn things out there looking for gainful employment.

So I did a quick bit of "research" to see what the entry-level cost would be for this sort of Class, versus the standard class of electro-semi and pump. What I did not do was look at "TOP END" gear, as the result would have been a massive price difference. I just looked at a basic "Amish" setup vs a common, inexpensive electro. I have no idea what loader eNVy-users buy, or even HPA tank they prefer, so I selected stuff that was "moderately priced" (I could have gone a bit lower, or a LOT higher - same for the pump-class gun). I didn't include masks or barrels because they throw in WAY too many variables (but a barrel for an eNVy costs the same as the barrel for a Spyder or 'Cocker or Tippmann, so it's really moot anyway).

GOG eNVy: $200
Agitator Hopper: $40 (Empire Overdrive)
HPA Tank: $60 (PMI 72/3000)
Total: $260

Kingman Spyder Victor: $60
Basic Hopper: $4
20 oz CO2 tank: $20
Total: $84
I would have to change the rule to allow double triggers [shrug].

Azodin Kaos: $180
Basic Hopper: $4
4 oz CO2 tank: $13
Total: $197

At any rate, any discussion is a good discussion.

Axel 11-19-2012 11:48 AM

I like it. The major problem with any new class is gaining acceptance and enough players to keep it going. The equipment limitations ate simple and easy, and most players have an old blowback and shake-n-shoot sitting around. If not, a 98 is about $50 on BST, $5 for a hopper, mask and tank can be carried over from open class.

I wouldnt write any rules for barrels. KISS. Simple rules = easier to adopt.

Case in point, I thought UWL was a great concept until I started reading about classes and gear. Nothing against those guys, just not for me so much.

Pif 11-19-2012 11:57 AM

Why blowback? What's wrong with automags?

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