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Old 11-27-2012, 07:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I played in the 80's 90's and 2000's.
The single most significant item that increased player enjoyment is knowing that practically 100% of the time you pulled the trigger a paintball would come out.
The HALO did that, for all intents and purposes. Next was ease of use, and the HP air systems did that. When guns went electronic, they were perfected, and that is how they stand now. Improvements come in tiny, fractional increments now. Sometimes they are not even improvements, but just changes.
Trying to play with substandard crap, which 99% of mechs are, just devolves the game, but not like playing pump.
I'll explain; Pump is a very good amalgamation of technologies that work well together. The loader works fine at pump speed, any tank will do, gameplay speed dictates you have time to reload and clean barrels and whatnot, and it encourages movement and bold play, but mostly creativity on small fields.
The best paintball is played with pumps on tournament fields, preferably against a technologically superior opponent. That's when you see good paintball.
When you see crap paintball is when you fight your equipment half the time, and use it as a crutch the other half. The problem with mechs is when you use them as a crutch, you fight them, at which point they tend to bitch-slap you with no love.
We all tend to like some obscure autococker or mag we had, but believe me, things got WAAAY better when the Angel showed up, then WAAAYY, WAY better when the HALO was put on top. Despite all the myths and legends, everything became more reliable, and balls were chopped far less. I Know.
Which begs the question; Why try to start a division of sub-par performing equipment that in general causes frustration, where everybody right out of the gate will try to loophole and cheat their way through? Even the most logical solution, which is to limit to gravity fed loaders, removes the one thing that makes the guns reliable and enjoyable to use.
I do like the idea of expanding the fields out again. Despite what some say, not everybody stays in the back. We drove hard to get into the other teams 40 often off the break, but we had setups and people willing to do it, as would players today. The difference is that EVERYBODY had to break and setup blind, and you had to read the other team to see how your plan unfolded. The field wasn't set in 5 seconds. It was set in 30-40 seconds.
If you like a gun or setup, just go use it. If you are any good with it it won't be a handicap, and you will use it up to it's limitation. Which is you.
Brent.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:50 PM   #33 (permalink)
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12v revie did it for me I ran a 97 cocker for a looong time on one. Not many mechanical guns ever needed a halo. let alone have a feedneck on your gun that accepted one...(thats another story) Will people tweak theyre to get it to perform better absolutely but because mechanical guns are blind theyre gonna eventually get to the point where the gun outshoots the hopper and chop like crazy.... even if your rocking a level 10 bolt in a mag your still not gonna out shoot the hopper
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:51 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I don't agree with everything you wrote, but you have an interesting post there.

The Halo was definitely revolutionary, but I contend it fixes chopping on a mech as well as an electro. You certainly have more experience than I, but I certainly remember my RT'd 98 working like a champ with a extra Halo borrowed from a teammate. It was 6 years ago but I think I played a whole scenario without chopping.

...I'm not claiming the 98 RT to be the pinnacle of mech by any means, mind you :D


Eh, on second thought, point taken. The electronic paintgun & force feed is the pinnacle of raw performance in terms of ROF, chopping, and control, disregarding cost, reliability, tinkerability, nostalgia, *Old School*, badassery, water resistance &tc.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MassDriver View Post
I played in the 80's 90's and 2000's.
The single most significant item that increased player enjoyment is knowing that practically 100% of the time you pulled the trigger a paintball would come out.
The HALO did that, for all intents and purposes. Next was ease of use, and the HP air systems did that. When guns went electronic, they were perfected, and that is how they stand now. Improvements come in tiny, fractional increments now. Sometimes they are not even improvements, but just changes.
Trying to play with substandard crap, which 99% of mechs are, just devolves the game, but not like playing pump.
I'll explain; Pump is a very good amalgamation of technologies that work well together. The loader works fine at pump speed, any tank will do, gameplay speed dictates you have time to reload and clean barrels and whatnot, and it encourages movement and bold play, but mostly creativity on small fields.
The best paintball is played with pumps on tournament fields, preferably against a technologically superior opponent. That's when you see good paintball.
When you see crap paintball is when you fight your equipment half the time, and use it as a crutch the other half. The problem with mechs is when you use them as a crutch, you fight them, at which point they tend to bitch-slap you with no love.
We all tend to like some obscure autococker or mag we had, but believe me, things got WAAAY better when the Angel showed up, then WAAAYY, WAY better when the HALO was put on top. Despite all the myths and legends, everything became more reliable, and balls were chopped far less. I Know.
Wow... 99% of mechs are substandard crap? I must have a 1% gun (but then everyone thinks that).

I agree that HPA is mo' bettah. And modern electro guns are really sweet. But then Harley's actually kind of suck and people still love them. Hunters still use Bows or Black Powder when the .308 is clearly superior. Heck, we have really nice houses, and some of us still sleep in tents upon occasion. So maybe there is some mutant gene in some that causes them to derive a sick kind of pleasure from doing things the hard way.

A while back, a kid asked me why I played pump when everyone else was using a semi. I asked him if he liked video games that never got any harder. He had a light-bulb moment.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:27 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Wow... 99% of mechs are substandard crap? I must have a 1% gun (but then everyone thinks that).

I agree that HPA is mo' bettah. And modern electro guns are really sweet. But then Harley's actually kind of suck and people still love them. Hunters still use Bows or Black Powder when the .308 is clearly superior. So maybe there is some mutant gene in some that causes them to derive a sick kind of pleasure from doing things the hard way.
Comparability so, yes. They are really not that effective as paintball guns. That of course does not mean they are not nice machinery in one aspect or another. They can be pleasurable to use. Same as a Harley.
I myself bowhunt as well as hunt with a rifle, for varying reasons. Some are romantic, some are practical, like extending the hunting season and hunting areas reserved for the arrow.
My point is a person sets themselves up for disappointment trying to form large groups for play in a handicapped format. Just enjoy your equipment for what it is and can do. It makes more sense to form a team of like minded enthusiasts and play that handicap.
Brent.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:56 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I miss the days of playing vrs all mechanical on larger fields. Perhaps its an obsession of reliving my youth. Probably much like the guy who Really wants that 69 Mustang because it was out of reach for him as a teenager now in his 50s he can get it and deck it out. I couldnt afford the nicest Mechanical guns in the 90s now that im older I have a nice collection of them.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:41 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MassDriver View Post
Trying to play with substandard crap, which 99% of mechs are, just devolves the game, but not like playing pump.
I kind of feel what you're saying here; I tried to say it in the other thread (where the number goes right up to 100% when it's restricted to blowbacks). The blowback only game is billed as a some sort of back to basics game of skill when it's really going to boil down to whoever manages to randomly make it through the day without their gun suffering some classic blowback problem. I mean, I would personally love to attend the event just to sit at the chrono station and watch what happens when a large number of newbs tries to play with a large number of budget blowbacks. It's going to be a very special olympics.

At least an open mech format allows people to opt for decent mech guns if they so wish, so that players can actually ... compete on the basis of skill.

That said, mech only games doesn't necessarily devolve things. Excluding RT, it really just has an end effect on ROF/burst and certain related things which I dare not go into (again), and it creates tradeoffs if you want to attain certain characteristics. So in contrast to your pump example, where the technologies are matched, a proper mech game would introduce certain equipment decisions and create some space for people to match a setup to their skills, instead of just constantly being all-in as with typical electro play.

Example:

Pump -- who cares what loader you're using for the most part. It's a pump.

Electro -- everyone wants lots of paint, and force feed. So it's standard hopper time. Halo, Rotor, etc.

Mech only -- either you go with a standard capacity shake-and-bake hopper, which has a high capacity, but limits your burst duration (exception being the cyclone, which I'm not even a fan of anyways). Or you go with a Q-loader, which introduces mechanical complexity, cuts your on-gun capacity in half, and cuts your pack capacity by 1/3. Or you go with a spring feed, which limits your on-gun capacity even further, but still gets you a larger burst if managed properly. And then you have the mag-feeds which have their own pros/cons.

(This is not the format that has been proposed here of course. In fact, I think I am the only one in favor of this particular format.)

I played with a Q-Loader up until I picked up my Tiberius pistols and then constructed my spring-fed Automag, and I'm reasonably sure my game play was not devolved during any of these periods. My markers are matched to my skills and style of play.

Not sure if any of this make sense to anyone else.
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Last edited by GoatBoy; 11-28-2012 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MassDriver View Post
Trying to play with substandard crap, which 99% of mechs are,
I'm curious as to what you consider the 1% of acceptable mechs are.

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Originally Posted by TFrevold View Post
Will people tweak theyre to get it to perform better absolutely but because mechanical guns are blind theyre gonna eventually get to the point where the gun outshoots the hopper and chop like crazy.... even if your rocking a level 10 bolt in a mag your still not gonna out shoot the hopper
Classic valve mags? I'll concede that one (begrudgingly) . RT valves? You can out shoot almost anything that isn't force feed pretty easily.

Last edited by mooseslake; 11-28-2012 at 04:38 AM. Reason: Adding
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:41 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Comparability so, yes. They are really not that effective as paintball guns. That of course does not mean they are not nice machinery in one aspect or another. They can be pleasurable to use. Same as a Harley.
I myself bowhunt as well as hunt with a rifle, for varying reasons. Some are romantic, some are practical, like extending the hunting season and hunting areas reserved for the arrow.
My point is a person sets themselves up for disappointment trying to form large groups for play in a handicapped format. Just enjoy your equipment for what it is and can do. It makes more sense to form a team of like minded enthusiasts and play that handicap.
Brent.
Then, by your logic, you are devolving hunting. Harley Riders are devolving motorcycling, Rolex wearers are devolving time-keeping, and Cessna 172 pilots are devolving aviation.

Basically what the OP is saying is "Hey, I like playing mech-ball, anybody else wanna join me? We'll get together, shoot each other, have a good time, but no electros, please." If they get a full-blown gaggle of freaks to turn up, then maybe they'll have some "events".

Just because it says "League" it does not really mean "Tournament Series". It means an affiliation of whack-jobs (like me) who like playing with nice mech-guns (or even bad ones). Maybe wear a strange badge and have a secret handshake. The point is, that it appears as though such an organization is not your cup of tea - so don't drink any, but don't pee in the OP's teapot either.

Basically, he knows its an up-hill struggle, but if he never tries he is guaranteed never to succeed. Without risking some great disappointment you can never have any great success.

If he pulls it off, I'll happily spend an afternoon shooting at him at 8bps
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