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View Poll Results: Raincover for $85
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:33 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Flounder View Post
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf
-That pretty much ends the argument right there.

Permanent part of a paintball gun, okay. Removable, not okay. End of story.

Now for the fun speculation- what kind of paintball gun was it? I remember we were discussing it years ago, but nobody knew...

Unibody Phantom? Palmer's Typhoon? Or did somebody literally tack-weld the barrel to the body of some gun?

It was suggested that a marker that had body "shells" like an SP-1 or even an M98 or A5, could have the outer casing of the silencer molded in place, and it had to be assembled around the barrel, making it a permanent part of the gun.

Or here's a thought: TIG weld the outer sleeve to the body of an old Automag, then have a barrel with integral baffles and porting slide in and seat to the sleeve when twist-locked into place. That might actually be worth trying...

Doc.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:39 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
-That pretty much ends the argument right there.

Permanent part of a paintball gun, okay. Removable, not okay. End of story.

Now for the fun speculation- what kind of paintball gun was it? I remember we were discussing it years ago, but nobody knew...

Unibody Phantom? Palmer's Typhoon? Or did somebody literally tack-weld the barrel to the body of some gun?

It was suggested that a marker that had body "shells" like an SP-1 or even an M98 or A5, could have the outer casing of the silencer molded in place, and it had to be assembled around the barrel, making it a permanent part of the gun.

Or here's a thought: TIG weld the outer sleeve to the body of an old Automag, then have a barrel with integral baffles and porting slide in and seat to the sleeve when twist-locked into place. That might actually be worth trying...

Doc.
Empire's TM-15 does this.

So knowing this now it is REALLY easy to make a paintball silencer. Just make it a permanent part of a marker and have the barrel slide through it.

Done.


Now who's going to make it!?!
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:16 PM   #133 (permalink)
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I shot an email over to the ATF and I may only have to wait 90 days for a response, woot woot!
They are super fast. We had a guy wait 1 year 3 months for approval to get his.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:34 PM   #134 (permalink)
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I think Doc is overstating the chances of this going badly. However I do not think he is overstating the outcome if it does. Yes JCurt would probably win - if he had enough time and money to fight the ATF. That being said even a win in this case is not without significant costs.

The risk to reward ratio is wrong for me to be intersted in doing this. Very high risk (both financial and non-financial), very low return.

That being said the decision is not mine. I think it is strictly legal but I think it is so close that I would not mess with it.

I once had a discussion with my lawyer about MI "safety inspections" of pistols which was a very thinly veiled registration system. I was told I could fight it and likely win as long as I wrote him a check for 200K before we started. I chose to comply instead
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:45 PM   #135 (permalink)
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If you could get this to mount on Barrels without eating the paint. I'd buy one in a second.

I have a rare color body phantom. Don't wanna ruin it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:14 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I think Doc is overstating the chances of this going badly. However I do not think he is overstating the outcome if it does.
I agree with this. A lot of the argument against the manufacture of these all stems from experiences before the Crooker case. Of course nobody really knows how the ATF will act in the wake of the Crooker decision, but in reading the case we do know how the Court is likely to rule considering the precedent.

Can anyone tell of any ATF experiences with regard to paintball silencers after the Crooker decision? If there are none, that's good news.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:16 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jcurt455 View Post
I shot an email over to the ATF and I may only have to wait 90 days for a response, woot woot!
They are super fast. We had a guy wait 1 year 3 months for approval to get his.
Hopefully they'll give you an approval letter, with some kind of reference number on it that you can engrave on the parts.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:28 AM   #138 (permalink)
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I really hope this works out. For all parties involved.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:38 AM   #139 (permalink)
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A lot of the argument against the manufacture of these all stems from experiences before the Crooker case.
-That's just it. The Crooker case didn't change anything.

The jury suggested that changes be made to the law, but until those changes are actually made, prior law still stands.

The court case only sets a precedent for the courts, not for ATF policy. Yes, Crooker may indeed make it easier to defend your case once you're already in court, but it does nothing at all to keep you from being charged in the first place, because the law hasn't been changed.

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Hopefully they'll give you an approval letter, with some kind of reference number on it that you can engrave on the parts.
-That's not how it works. Whoever answers that email would either have to point you to the relevant law (by section and paragraph and all that- there's a reason they quoted those laws in that airsoft letter) that says it's okay for us to have an airgun/paintball silencer (in which case they'd have a list of things that defines the difference between a firearms silencer and an airgun silencer) in which case there'd be no need for any numbers or engravings, or they'll tell you how to submit an example for testing.

I don't know the proper procedure for doing so, but yes, in essence, it's legal to build one for submission to the ATF. If it passes- as the "welded" one did- they'll send you a letter as that PDF shows, saying so. If it doesn't, they'll also send you a letter saying so.

They do NOT do that kind of transaction via email. At best, any reply to Curt will be a blurb citing the same laws as in that airsoft letter, and/or a link to an ATF page describing how he can submit a sample for testing.

Doc.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:42 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
-That's just it. The Crooker case didn't change anything.

The jury suggested that changes be made to the law, but until those changes are actually made, prior law still stands.

The court case only sets a precedent for the courts, not for ATF policy. Yes, Crooker may indeed make it easier to defend your case once you're already in court, but it does nothing at all to keep you from being charged in the first place, because the law hasn't been changed.
Doc, with all due respect, that's just not how it works. First of all, it wasn't a jury. It was a panel of Federal Justices for the U.S. Court of Appeals. And what they did was to hold that the current law cannot apply to silencers made for paintball guns without an intent to use them or modify them for use on firearms.

The Justices then went on to suggest changes to the law to make it so that paintball silencers would also be illegal, if that's why Congress or the Attorney General really wanted to do. But until those changes are made, the current law cannot be applied to a case to make a silencer for paintball illegal. You seem to be reading that part backwards.

Of course that doesn't mean that an ATF agent is prohibited for making a case and trying again. But the precedent that is set is pretty darn clear - the current law, without changes, just doesn't work. Prosecutors have to follow the law, and if there's a case specifically on point, like Crooker, then for a Prosecutor to disregard that and still file charges in spite of it, that would actually subject the Prosecutor to the possibility of facing a malicious prosecution lawsuit. That's the check and balance part of our Justice System, where the Judiciary gets to tell the Executive branch "you can't enforce this law in this manner."

Ultimately Crooker really did change everything, because now the current law has been tested and has been found to not apply to paintball silencers. So in order for paintball silencers to become illegal "again" there has to be a legislative change. (Although you really can't say "again", because the current law was found to never have applied to paintball silencers in the first place, without a specific intent to be used on a firearm).

TL|DR: The Crooker Court said "This law does not apply to paintball silencers unless there was an intent to use the silencer on a firearm." AND "If you (ATF) want the law to apply to paintball silencers, then it first needs to be changed to be more specific, to include silencers made for airguns, and not just for firearms. Because it doesn't do that in its current form."
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