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View Poll Results: Raincover for $85
Hell yes, I would buy one 30 30.61%
I would berak down and buy one at some point 24 24.49%
maybe 24 24.49%
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:47 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
Doc, with all due respect, that's just not how it works.
-Second off, I'm not a lawyer, nor have I ever played one on TV.

But I'm also not completely clueless on the subject. The key phrase is the final one in the court finding:

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" But, given the statute's wording, the answer is not to stretch the present statute beyond its language but to amend it-if the government is so minded-to deal more effectively with home-made or adaptable devices."
Bolding mine.

Again, until said law is changed or amended, prior law is still valid.

And yet again, while Crooker may make it easier to defend your case once you're in court, it offers no protection whatsoever against arrest and being charged.

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And what they did was to hold that the current law cannot apply to silencers made for paintball guns without an intent to use them or modify them for use on firearms.
-The finding said no such thing. I'm using this copy, which does indeed state that current law is "vague" on the subject, and as above suggests that changes be made, but did not at any point state the law cannot apply to airgun silencers.

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But until those changes are made, the current law cannot be applied to a case to make a silencer for paintball illegal. You seem to be reading that part backwards.
-On the contrary. You're assuming that paintball silencers are legal until declared illegal, when in fact it's exactly the opposite. Current law essentially states that ANY silencer, airgun or no, is considered illegal until proven otherwise. Yes, an airgun isn't a firearm, but if it can be used on a firearm- which is where the finding's statement of "vagueness" comes in- it's still subject to the law.

It's essentially "guilty until proven innocent"- basically the silencer is illegal until you prove otherwise. Crooker itself is a perfect example of that.

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But the precedent that is set is pretty darn clear - the current law, without changes, just doesn't work.
-Incorrect. It's been found unnecessarily vague, yes, but nothing in Crooker even implies it's no longer valid. If what you said is true, that the law doesn't apply to a paintball silencer, at the absolute least, it would have to spell out specific differences between a firearms silencer and a paintball silencer- including more properly defining "intent".

At absolute best, the Crooker finding essentially said that, absent proof of intent, that paintball silencer is probably- but by no means definitively- not illegal. Which is definitely a step in the right direction for us, but it's still a very long way from open legality.

Quote:
Prosecutors have to follow the law, and if there's a case specifically on point, like Crooker, then for a Prosecutor to disregard that and still file charges in spite of it, that would actually subject the Prosecutor to the possibility of facing a malicious prosecution lawsuit.
-Entirely true. But again, barring an actual, official change to the law- which again, hasn't happened yet- the legality or illegality of a paintball silencer still hinges on "intent". Which Crooker acknowledges can be little more than the fact the owner knows how to, or has the equipment to, mount it to a firearm, regardless of actual actions.

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Ultimately Crooker really did change everything, because now the current law has been tested and has been found to not apply to paintball silencers.
-No, it's been found to be unnecessarily vague in regards to non-firearm silencers. At no point does it say the law no longer applies.

[Three more repetitions of your same claim, snipped. ]

In order for the law to officially no longer apply to airgun silencers, they would have to amend the law itself, at the very least to specifically define what differentiates an airgun silencer from a firearms silencer.

For example- you make an aluminum-bodied silencer for your .22 airgun. You thread the barrel for 1/2-28, or whatever the common threading is, thread the can to match, fill it full of .22 cal baffles.

For the sake of the example, let's say you don't even own a firearm, let alone one with a barrel threaded to match.

How is that different from a firearms silencer? If a cop saw it, he'd arrest you on sight, and you'd have to go to court to somehow prove it's not a firearms silencer, despite being identical to one.

Yes, it'd be easier to prove that with a paintball silencer, but from a legal standpoint, the idea's the same. If they exempt a certain class of silencer from the law, they have to specify where, how and under what conditions it's exempt, else they'd open the door to being unable to prosecute anyone for having a silencer, unless they catch them with it actually attached to a firearm at the time.

Now, if we're lucky, at some point they'll do exactly that- but they're not going to do it on their own. It'll take another court case- meaning somebody is going to have to be charged and prosecuted. Or somebody with deep pockets, like one of the air rifle makers, will have to do some lobbying- and at the moment, they're perfectly happy with their permanently-attached loophole.

Doc.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:03 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Hey JCurt, what, exactly, did you ask in that email? At this point we're just a bunch of nonlawyers arguing over what we all think the law says, so what somebody needs to do is ask the ATF directly. Anything else, it seems, is supposition and wishful thinking.

If the ATF themselves says we can have 'em, I'll make or buy one.

But not a second before.

Doc.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:18 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Just a general question about a paintball suppressor that would not function with a real fire arm. I plan on callling the cleveland branch today and see if I can actually talk to someone.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Talke to someone at the ATF and they said sounds fine but he will douible check. I also ask along with calling me if he could send me an email stating it would be ok.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:42 AM   #145 (permalink)
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If you can get some sort of official document stating the legality of making and owning these, that would be great. Some sort of identification number on the item and legal document in possession of the consumer would go a long way in getting buyer support.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:10 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Well I kind of have to now. 20min after calling them I had 3 emails. So I'm on the radar now.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by James_Blond View Post
If you can get some sort of official document stating the legality of making and owning these, that would be great. Some sort of identification number on the item and legal document in possession of the consumer would go a long way in getting buyer support.

yeah, like current NFA registration would handle it . . . with a small $200 tax stamp, etc.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Silencers

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:25 PM   #148 (permalink)
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I'm sensing a new niche market for a pod pack with a special waterproof compartment to carry your ATF tax stamp.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #149 (permalink)
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yeah, like current NFA registration would handle it . . . with a small $200 tax stamp, etc.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Silencers

ah yes, but that would be if it is considered a true silencer right? But if you had the official document stating that it is not to be considered a firearm silencer then you wouldn't need to pay any tax on it right?
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:58 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Correct.
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