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View Poll Results: Raincover for $85
Hell yes, I would buy one 30 30.61%
I would berak down and buy one at some point 24 24.49%
maybe 24 24.49%
no 20 20.41%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:54 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurt455 View Post
I'm no lawyer but the definition is clear.
-The people who wrote Crooker ARE lawyers- judges, in fact. And they don't think the definition is clear.

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:55 PM   #162 (permalink)
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The company's would be anyone making any kind of tubing, oil filters, pillows, straight flow car mufflers, ect.
If they take modifying into account there are tens of thousands of things that can reduce muzzle noise if made to, just like a paintball suppressor modified to fit a firearm.
Hell anyone with half a brain could go to Walmart and make a suppressor easier than making this work on a real gun
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:24 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Except that part has already been solved, and a long time ago- that's where the "intent" part came from.

The pipe-insulation letter said as much; the insulation itself wasn't illegal, but the moment you put it on a barrel, IE, intending to silence a shot, it became illegal. And, also in that case, keeping the insulation as-is, for paintball use, was also declared legal, but putting it inside a case or housing was defined as "making", or manufacturing a silencer.

That part has all been settled.

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Old 12-07-2012, 07:30 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Yes but then being of possession of a fire arm, pop bottle and duct tape would be viewed as intent. Then the manufactures of those things shoud be raided and charged. That's in a nut shell is what they are saying about paintball suppressors.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:51 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:14 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Ported barrels are considered silencers as well.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:41 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Ported barrels are considered silencers as well.
Strap one to a firearm, and if it muffles the report by 1Db, then yes. Any of the mundane items mentioned above--pillow, potatoes, pop bottles--do become silencers when used as such.

...vs a purpose-built item to muffle a projectile, which may not need to be actually used as such for NFA regulations to apply.

It is a legally murky topic. "Law" and "intent" are murky subjects. How does the law define "intent?" Consider that in many jurisdictions, you can be charged with D.U.I. simply for sitting in the driver's seat of a parked car with the key nearby. Maybe you 'intended' (English) to sleep it off, but in court, your 'intent' (Legalese) is defined for you by statute.

Another example: in Virginia, certain knives with assisted-opening blades are not illegal to possess... however, they are illegal to sell, and possession alone, according to statute, is prima facie evidence of intent to sell. In other words, you can be arrested, charged, and convicted* of selling an assisted-opening knife simply for possessing one. Why the legislators did not simply outlaw possession, I haven't the foggiest idea.

The point is that law need not be logical, and it need not conform to commonly understood definitions. If 900 pages of law, 12 volumes of regulations, and a panel of justices decide that the sky is green, they can do so if they are inclined to. People laughed when Clinton quibbled over the definition of the word, "is," but he really only used standard legal tactics.

*...and here's a demonstration of the risk of amateur lawyering! I just re-read parts of the Wikipedia article on prima facie, and apparently it means that possession would be enough to take a case to trial, not necessarily convict of its own weight.

As I've said before, I think that this is and should be legal, but not sure enough to do it myself.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:27 AM   #168 (permalink)
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I'm not sure, but I don't think you have to have the physical stamp with you, even for a firearms silencer. However, if we do get some kind of written okay for a certain class of silencer, it sure couldn't hurt to have a physical copy of it with you at the paintball field, or tucked into your gearbag.
I used to be better informed on the topic, but as I recall, for NFA weapons two of the stipulations are that, first, the paperwork stays with the weapon. I seem to recall a custom violin case made to hold a Tommy gun, with a special compartment for the papers. Second, the legal owner, whose name is on the registration, must be present at all times when the weapon is not in storage. My buddy Johnny can shoot my machine gun as long as he is legally able to possess, but I have to be with him. If I lend him the gun for a day at the range, see you tonight, bring her back safe and sound, then I've just transferred it without following the legal registration/taxation procedure and both Johnny & I are now eligible to receive mandatory invitations to Club Fed, courtesy of the American taxpayer.

For the record, I don't actually own any NFA weapons myself, or any firearms at all for that matter.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:55 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Strap one to a firearm, and if it muffles the report by 1Db, then yes. Any of the mundane items mentioned above--pillow, potatoes, pop bottles--do become silencers when used as such.

...vs a purpose-built item to muffle a projectile, which may not need to be actually used as such for NFA regulations to apply.

It is a legally murky topic. "Law" and "intent" are murky subjects. How does the law define "intent?" Consider that in many jurisdictions, you can be charged with D.U.I. simply for sitting in the driver's seat of a parked car with the key nearby. Maybe you 'intended' (English) to sleep it off, but in court, your 'intent' (Legalese) is defined for you by statute.

Another example: in Virginia, certain knives with assisted-opening blades are not illegal to possess... however, they are illegal to sell, and possession alone, according to statute, is prima facie evidence of intent to sell. In other words, you can be arrested, charged, and convicted* of selling an assisted-opening knife simply for possessing one. Why the legislators did not simply outlaw possession, I haven't the foggiest idea.

The point is that law need not be logical, and it need not conform to commonly understood definitions. If 900 pages of law, 12 volumes of regulations, and a panel of justices decide that the sky is green, they can do so if they are inclined to. People laughed when Clinton quibbled over the definition of the word, "is," but he really only used standard legal tactics.

*...and here's a demonstration of the risk of amateur lawyering! I just re-read parts of the Wikipedia article on prima facie, and apparently it means that possession would be enough to take a case to trial, not necessarily convict of its own weight.

As I've said before, I think that this is and should be legal, but not sure enough to do it myself.
ummmmm i think CrimsonDeath was just horsing around, hence why Deuce's post "beating a dead horse" was quoted.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:12 AM   #170 (permalink)
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-Second off, I'm not a lawyer, nor have I ever played one on TV.
I'm late getting back to this, but I've been doing other things this weekend. Doc, I honestly mean no disrespect, but you're still comprehending that case completely wrong. I had a long response typed out explaining it all, but I scrapped it due to the unnecessary length and the fact that some people apparently think that spirited discussion on a topic where disagreement exists is the same as beating a dead horse. Go figure.

But I still think I can sum it up in 4 or 5 brief points:

1. Paintball guns are not firearms. They've been defined differently. See ATF Rul.2005-4 (paintball gun, which uses compressed air to expel a projectile, is not a “firearm” under the statute) << direct quote from the Crooker decision.

2. The current statute prohibits the possession of a firearm silencer, specifically defined. There is no statute prohibiting the use or possession of a paintball gun silencer. If I'm wrong, then quote me the US Code section and I'll apologize.

3. Without a statute specifically prohibiting its possession, a paintball gun silencer is no more illegal than a car muffler. (Or, the examples that the Crooker Court liked to use were a plastic soda bottle or a potato).

4. The Government attempted to use the statute prohibiting possession of a firearm silencer against Michael Crooker for possession of a paintball gun silencer, but on appeal the Court said 'no, the current statute doesn't apply unless the device can be adapted to be used on a firearm and the Government can prove that Crooker intended for it to be adapted for use in silencing a firearm.' Because the Government could only show that the device could be adapted, but not that Crooker intended for it to be adapted for firearm use, Crooker was acquitted. (The part of the statute requiring intent for firearm use is only necessary when the device requires adaptation for use on a firearm. Possession of commercially manufactured firearm silencers do not require the showing of intent to use.)

5. This analysis is coming from someone who can't say the same thing as you did, quoted above. And no, I'm not a TV actor. And none of what I post on a paintball forum is to be construed as any form of legal advice.
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