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Old 12-04-2012, 07:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Axel View Post
If we have too many formats, paintball might implode on itself and cease to exist entirely.
no, those formats would implode. as long as there are friends who want to hunt each other, paintball will be fine.
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Before the first day Velcor said let there be Heinous and it was true. And then Heinous said "Let there be God" and it was true. And it was good
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:57 PM   #62 (permalink)
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It’s not an unfair question.

“Quit trying to bring people [down] to your level!”

“Oh, and what level is that?”

Seems like a completely natural response to me.

It’s only unfair if you’re not willing to stand behind your own words, bless your heart.

To refresh:



Perhaps time reconsider this line of thinking?
As I said, there are a variety of reasons. I don't discount those. But there are some, inarguably, that either cannot or do not want to play at a high level. They have a difficult time playing past a handicap, like a sub-par gun.
Why do you assume I was talking about you? Or more accuratly, why, by your tone, are you taking it personally?
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:27 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MassDriver View Post
As I said, there are a variety of reasons. I don't discount those. But there are some, inarguably, that either cannot or do not want to play at a high level. They have a difficult time playing past a handicap, like a sub-par gun.
wait, you know that but still want them to play against electros in tourneys? that's just inviting for targets to shoot. not all of them can afford an electro, if you disapprove of mech leagues, then in those people's eyes you're basically inviting people who suck with mechs to get mowed by electros at your tourneys.
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Before the first day Velcor said let there be Heinous and it was true. And then Heinous said "Let there be God" and it was true. And it was good
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:55 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
If we have too many formats, paintball might implode on itself and cease to exist entirely.
Nope, we need a never ending supply of formats. Remember, there's no rule you only need to pick one at a time.

I want Cowboy Action games with revolvers and lever actions (hopefully we'll get more of those to help bring the price down a bit).

I want Halo licensed gear and scenario games based around them.

I want there to be a class for every gun type, every game type, every skill level. I want that first time player who picked up a plastic pump ER2 at Walmart to know that yes, there's a game waiting for him, and not only will he be welcome but he'll be on par with everyone else there.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:24 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I want there to be a class for every gun type, every game type, every skill level. I want that first time player who picked up a plastic pump ER2 at Walmart to know that yes, there's a game waiting for him, and not only will he be welcome but he'll be on par with everyone else there.
I want to live in this perfect world. True, it doesn't exist but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we possibly can to work toward it.

Let's take small steps. For instance.... I want to be able to take my 12yr old nephew out to a game and not have to worry about some jerk with self esteem issues and a ramping marker.

Disclaimer - Not all players with ramping markers are jerks with self esteem issues. Electro's don't overshoot players, other players do that just fine all by themselves.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:03 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Gents, in my previous post, I wanted to type some treatise about Adam Smith and how the consumer will choose the winning formats and everything will be fine... but, I was browsing on my phone at the time so instead I went with a sarcastic one-liner.

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Old 12-05-2012, 07:57 AM   #67 (permalink)
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I'm just replying to the OP. Not trying to anyone off, just explaining my thoughts on this matter.

"Back to Basics" and "Blow-Back" only are the same thread. I started it to measure interest and to bounce ideas around. I've pretty well explained my reasoning in that thread, but I'm willing to give it a go here as well. I would re-name them, but that would only cause more confusion.

I have noticed that no matter what limit an individual may choose to place upon a niche league, the immediate response is "What about my [insert gun of next higher tech level here]." This is, of course, completely natural, and I don't mind it one bit. The next thing that happens is some responder gets annoyed that he is being excluded from play. I am not posting a thread like this:

"International X-tourney Series with really great prizes that you are missing out on because we’re stupid and won’t allow your amazing gun. It’s gonna be fun! I mean Really fun! We’re gonna have bikini-clad Swedish Super Models for refs, FREE paint and air, ESPN will broadcast the entire event during prime time, and the winning team gets a recording contract, a speaking part in the next Avengers movie, beers with President Obama, 16oz of gold, and a Bentley for each member of the team.”

It ain't like that... but on to my reasoning.

The idea started with a conversation with a friend of mine and went something like this:
Sven: "Dude, there are people who play only electro."
Me: "Well, ya. They rock."
Sven: "Yeah, but there are also guys who play exclusively pump."
Me: "Yeah, it's a hoot!" (I also play pump)
Sven: "And there're guys that stick with mech guns."
Me: "Again, they are pretty cool. Swiss watch vs Casio and all that."
Sven: "Why no blow-back guys? I mean, how many people own them? How fun are they?
Perhaps not possessing of the great awesomeness of Electros, or the intricate mech operation of a 'Cocker, or even requiring the hard-core ninja-like skills of the pump - but still lots of fun for the money!"
Me: "I'm taking away your beer, Sven."

Still... It was tumbling about in my head (there is a lot of room in there for tumbling).

What I realized was that there is really nothing wrong with a blow-back - there is also nothing great about them. They are, basically, a "paintball gun".

I have, in my many years in this rather odd sport, heard many a newbie and oldie bemoan the latest advance in technology. Believe it or not, the 7oz CO2 bottle was once “going to ruin the game.” Newbies bemoan new tech because it’s incredibly unfair (like semis, when most fields rented pumps). Regardless, there is always some goober who cries foul when he loses, because "The other guys all had [insert gun he does not own here]", and I wanted to avoid that as much as possible. I figured that since Blow-Backs are really the “Middle Ground”, are inexpensive, readily available, commonly rented, and have limited performance they might make a nice “Common Platform” gun. They are a known quantity, with known limitations.

Now, Stock and Pump guns are common platform, but are less-available and tend to cost more than even the “best” blow-backs. Also, there are already Pump-Only events.

Mech-only already has its champions. And there are mech guns out there that will exceed the current tournament bps limits. Also, I’ve always figured that a “Mech-Only” league would quickly become a “Mag/Cocker League”. So, I left that alone.

With Blow-Back only, you can have a league or tourney with a total equipment cost of about $100 (the price for a Tippmann Gryphon, tank, hopper, and mask at Sports Authority) – OR you can rent your equipment and still be on an equal footing with the other equipment out there. Limiting paint keeps the cost of competition low (relatively speaking) and reduces anti-tactics like “Spray n’ Pray”. Requiring a non-mechanized hopper keeps bps low (looks like 8 bps max with a couple of the new “improved” non-mech hoppers), which tends to force players to move more, which tends to make the game a bit more interesting.

Also, since Blow-Back is the middle ground in Paintball, any player who finds that he/she enjoys playing in tourneys and wants to “up” his game and/or equipment, he can turn left and go pump, or turn right and go Electro. Either way, he has spent a little time in the “Minor Leagues” and has some experience playing in the tournament environment. Or, he could simply say "That's not my game, Baby", and return to his normal life of rec-ball bliss.

That is my reasoning. It may be flawed, but there it is. I’m not saying “We need a Blow-Back only league because my favorite gun is a Blow-Back.” I was moved to the platform as it was the best fit for the mission I wanted to accomplish – get more freaks into the game and expose as many as possible to organized competition while asking as little from their wallets (or Dad's wallet) as practicable.

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Last edited by ironnerd88; 12-05-2012 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:12 AM   #68 (permalink)
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.. I was moved to the platform as it was the best fit for the mission I wanted to accomplish get more freaks into the game and expose as many as possible to organized competition while asking as little from their wallets (or Dad's wallet) as practicable.
OK - slightly different from your OP.

IMO: ditch the tourney idea and focus on getting freaks into the game... and that is recball.

Its simple really: 6bps, max. Thats the way it was (in effect) in the days when blow backs ruled the land. And the kids were still plenty scared walking on with the open class players - but if you give them an automag rental things level out very quickly (equipment wise.)

And the staff instructs the regular players to gear back - way back - if you want to play w/ the new player groups. (meaning use your pump and loose the pack!)
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:49 AM   #69 (permalink)
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WARNING: TOPIC DRIFT

Yes, slightly different from my OP. Essentially a full explanation of why I thought the concept may have some traction. My OP was pretty light weight, but does allude to my point that Blow-Backs sit nicely between Electros and pumps and are easier to limit, and that it could be used as a platform for a less-intimidating, less-expensive tourney.

Field owners regulate how Rec-Ball is played. If the owner tells his regulars "We have newbies, you can't use your Axe or carry all that paint," the well-equipped guys will find another field, and the field owner loses repeat customers (which is really how they make money). The use of a tournament as a vehicle for limited equipment and paint allows regulars to opt out without leaving the field while also adding to the field owner's revenue instead of reducing it.

Sadly, it's not as simple as saying: "6 bps, max" unless you have a well-trained ref at the elbow of every player. I was getting better than 6 bps from my Stingray way back when. It would cycle faster than that, but could not feed balls any faster (turned into a paint mixer if I was not careful), and would run out of steam pretty quickly (ye olde CO2 with no reservoir).

But I see more than League play out there - there is also Paintball Summer Camp (saw it at one field in Canada - apparently a properly chilled brain works best), which would be a great way to get more young freaks deep into the game and make some extra spondulix for the field - especially her in the ATL where summer is actually the "off" season (It can be powerful hot here come May). Of course they would mostly use rental equipment for summer camp, and what is rental equipment at most fields? Tippmann 98 - blow-back...


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Last edited by ironnerd88; 12-05-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:53 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I didn't read the Blow Back thread. I didn't realize it was meant as local league for new players. In that case, I think it's a good thing (especially with limited paint), but I have a feeling it will always be limited in participation.

Practically all new players that have played a few times and decide they want to start doing this paintball thing regularly, also want to buy decent equipment. Less and less people start with blow backs these days many of those that do, quickly decide they need something "better". Part of the lure of paintball is the equipment and anyone that sticks with it soon wants better stuff. The point I'm trying to make is that a Blow Back league will have people graduating out of it, as quickly or quicker than a constant stream of new players can be recruited. I'm not trying to be negative (I think it's a good idea), just forewarning that there will be an ongoing recruitment effort needed.

But as far as beginner tourneys go, it's as good of an idea as any.

Last edited by Horizon; 12-05-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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