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Old 12-05-2012, 03:12 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
This is what happens when I play pump against electros in a tournament:

A few games in I realize that having that quick backup shot (especially when you sneak up on someone) is handy. I make due.

A game or two later I realize being able to "cover" my own move is handy as well.

By a few games after that I am using an electro. I have literally purchased markers in the middle of a tournament because I was getting so frustrated with the disadvantage.

Those of you who play pump and suffer no disadvantage must be paintball gods.
Or they just don't care about winning at all costs. They'd rather have "fun."
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:13 PM   #82 (permalink)
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No not gods. I've just never played anything but pump. And I don't break down and by an electro. I just keep trudging. Either that or the speedballers near you are better. Generally I find speedballers can't aim worth a crap. That split second it take for them to adjust their stream is all you need to rack of two rounds and move. Personally I think it's them that's at a disadvantage. They are weighted Down from all the extra pods. Their gun is HUGE and sticks out. They wear Bright colors that make them attract my eye. They underestimated you for playing a pump(that's a big one) they use humongous hoppers like the ridiculous looking pinocio. The only annoying advantage I feel they have is all that bounce clothing they wear. If you want to ban something. Ban that. I'm tired of scoring a good hit first shot with my pump only to have it bounce. That's very frustrating.

And that weird cross eyed thing they do down the barrel or whatever. That's not aiming that's guessing. Get rid of the hopper all its doing is blocking your line of sight
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Last edited by Keebler; 12-05-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:25 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Huh... There have been several times when I put my Semi back in the bag, pulled out a pump and did better (even though my semi is more accurate than my pumps - weird, but true). I think pump makes me think ahead a little more, slows me down, and makes me focus on what the heck I'm doing, rather than trying to save myself with paint. Not that I don't get frustrated once in a while - I do, but no game or day is perfect.

Oddly, when I play speedball, I normally get shot by my own team because I'm pretty far out ahead of them - and they can't aim for "poo". Happens in rec-ball as well - I get a good distance out from the rest of my group (because they are campers), and when I run into a LOT of the other team, I try to retreat, and my own side shoots me. I've learned to just take out as many as I can before getting hit.

And no, pump guys are not gods. Ninja maybe, but not gods.

I don't always play pump, but when I do, I use a Rebline (with a 3.5 oz tank and a 50 ball hopper).

Sorry for the drift...
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:37 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I take a pump with me and I enjoy it either against other pumps or on rec days.

I just don't enjoy it during competetive tournaments. I have no doubt that pump puts me at a tremendous disadvantage compared to an electro - and I am conservative with paint even using an electro.

It might be that you guys are that much better than I am. I always "made a living" so to speak when playing competetive tournaments by being where others did not expect me. Thus missing with a pump and giving away my position was very costly. I did not fire just one ball with a semi.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:41 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Naw I've never played tourney ball it doesn't appeal to me I've played with supposed semi pro guys before during their practice days and I wasnt impressed but you playing in actual tourneys you were probably exposed to a better quality speedballers so I don't think I'm better than you not that I would know I've neverplayed with you

To make it Legit. I don't know how to help ya in your quest to find a fair and balanced format. I think that people being people will always find loopholes and ways around the rules. Speedball guns started in the first place because of full auto being banned didn't they. People wear bounce clothing to avoid being shot out. Etc etc etc. Unless you plan on creating an ever evolving rule set like punkbuster for video games. I think you'll always run into problems. Which is probably why current tourney rule books are so confusing. Over the years they kept having to add amendments to account for new exploits and loopholes. Next this you know you have a pile of red tape and no one wants to play your game anymore
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Last edited by Keebler; 12-05-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:08 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I absolutely LOVED playing in our Pump Tourney, it was such a great experience to play in. We have a regular Pump Night every week at our local indoor, but it doesn't compare to playing in a competitive yet fun environment. Like people have already started, there was Honour on the Battlefield. I didn't witness any cheating, people were calling themselves out without having a Ref come over to double check - was just a great night of paintball.

Having said that, we are planning on holding a Mag-Fed Only Tourney in the next few months, and we are fielding a Pump Team for Nationals in January against the speedballers - Having exclusionary tourney's or games just adds to the Game of Paintball. Pretty sure the Speedballers who entered our Pump Tourney had fun, many of them have never picked up a pump, and we've been seeing a few start to come to Pump Night. Just a Win Win for Paintball!
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:31 PM   #87 (permalink)
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TLDR: We have this discussion a lot, it goes no where, I agree with the OP that you can only define limitations on gear in regards to pump or other "hard equipment truths". Playing styles such as "milsim" can't even be defined.
--------------------



"Or they just don't care about winning at all costs. They'd rather have "fun.""

The original intent of the thread was regarding playing tournament paintball in a "mixed" setting. There are plenty of formats designed for people to have "fun". I've also seen people, even these holy-of-holy pump players we're talking about get pretty heated over games that are supposed to be "fun". There are certainly different "levels" of competition and some are decidedly more lighthearted than others.

Guys, we have this conversation constantly in different iterations and I don't know why we bother. Someone tries to be constructive about forming a league with different playing styles or preferences or brings up a hypothetical on equipment and it turns into the usual complaints about people that hate tournaments. I play everything and have no problem with it. If you don't want to play it, don't play it. We're past the "let's include people" phase, we're all (hopefully) big boys and girls. I have PERSONALLY worked AT LENGTH to experiment with different tournament formats and have taken FINANCIAL LOSS doing so. I have run pump only tournaments and mechanical only tournaments. I've given away mechanical guns as prizes. I've done limited paint tournaments. Hell, I've advertised them here and I don't think any MCB person has ever shown up, EVER, NOT ONCE. In New England, we've had this discussion about the Gravity League and the NEPL Pump Division. I mean, there's no point in even talking about it, the format is the format and if people don't want to play or are afraid of playing (which increasingly is sounding like the case to me) then that's what it is. But then those same individuals cannot be all armchair commando and insist that they'll never play tournaments because blah blah blah and it's not for them.

Keebler - I have only seen one person ever using a Pinokio attachment, and it was a scenario game player. You're just spouting off generic nonsense like a lot of people on this board. We're going by gun size now? I suppose a CCM Series 6 or any other "normal size" Autococker based pump gun isn't a REAL pump gun because with a loader and a tank, its the same size as any other modern electronpneumatic setup. I guess the guys that play NPPL and PSP pump and win on a consistent basis are just a bunch of spray and pray autotrigger-ers and they all suck as bad as their semi toting counterparts and some teams just magically place at the top by sheer luck every season.

While I agree that speedball can be terribly reptitive and boring in a recball concept, I wanted to answer your inquiry on why it is arranged so. In any legitimate competition, each team needs to be afforded the same opportunity. I've played scenario style tournaments and woodsball tournaments where one team gets a significant advantage over the other and there is no "switching of sides", or if one side is so dominant that the best of two games ends in a tie, then you still have the conundrum of one team having the advantage for the tie breaker. In speedball, there are no twigs or random things in the way blocking shots and it's significantly easier to referee. For all intensive purposes, I'm defining speedball as anything with any bunkers on an open field that isn't in the woods regardless of bunker constuction.

I won the "Top Gun" accuracy challenge at Xtreme Paintball two years ago with an EGO 10. The challenge was having limited shots to hit targets at 10, 15, 25, and 50 feet. I beat out the pumps and I used a Dye Rotor. I suppose all of that accurate shooting was ALSO just a matter of luck.

And just for video evidence and to put my money where my mouth is:

2012 CAPL Event 1-6 - YouTube I do the pump vs semi thing. If I had a "normal" gun, this game would have been over in half the time. This was a Race to 2 PSP style tournament so all of the guns were on 12.5 ramping. I shot two guys out this point.

I've also won multiple big game/scenario MVP titles while playing pump, I went undefeated in the Airsports stock class tournament, got 1st or 2nd in 6 Gravity League events this year, and won the Best of New England event for pump. I am telling you people in all seriousness that speedball is just a physical field. The basic elements of all paintball are communication, moving, and shooting. You do this for EVERY game style. If people that play any particular format want to keep drinking the manufacturer-induced kool-aid that everything is magically different and you are INCAPABLE of playing something outside of "your" style, then throw in some gingerale while you're at it; the extra bubbles will keep you on your toes. Until then, people who swear to be serious or that they can do this whole paintball tournament thing easy peasy need to put on their goggles, air their guns up, and start putting balls on target one shot at a time. Until then, it's useless internet drivel.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:39 PM   #88 (permalink)
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You can't play in my Tournament then. I provide the hoppers. You provide the gun. Stuff as much paint as you want into that hopper. Those are the only rules.
A-5 w/cyclone feed. I remove the hopper and tape on yours. Rules circumvented.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:26 AM   #89 (permalink)
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I was simply saying that I don't think it should matter what people want to use. In my mind I don't feel that any equipment offers any "cure all". Advantage and all have their weak points. My other point had been that people being people will always find the loopholes in any format you design. So I guess what you said earlier is true.... Why do we even bother. Personally I don't see game progressing past where it is and I'm not so sure I'd want it to. I'm not sure there's a single infallible format that you or anyone else can create. As for the top gun accuracy contest thingy. 50 feet is no challenge at all. I'd venture to say all standard paint guns within reason could achieve consistency at this range. Try using that same marker you used in today's top sniper challenge. I'd think you'd find it a different story all together. My red dot sight is zerod at exactly 50 feet. And it will put the ball on that dot at that range every time. Taking Into account wind of course. I guess I'm saying the same thing your saying. What's the point. Paintball is at its best when it's just a bunch of kids having fun. But. The only current platform that seems to be working and is somewhat exclusionary that I'm seeing regularly I guess would be milsim or milsim-ish formats. Especially in urban environments. It's decently paced. It's easy to understand especially if the missions are kept simple. And is easily televised especially with helmet cams etc.

As far as speedball being totally even and fair with no side being better than the other. Really? So neither side is ever facing the wind. Or facing the sun? Maybe in indoor play.

I dunno what to tell you. I really don't think there's a solution to this problem. You'd almost have to pick whatever equipment standard you wanted and issue that equipment to all competitor's involved. So in other words. You announce a tournament. Detailing what equipment will be issued to you and what equipment you may bring. The players show up. They receive their gear as they walk into the field or. Maybe they receive it and than approach a waiting area till both teams are squared away. They play their match or. Matches. They walk off the field and turn in their gear.

Is this sort of what your looking for?
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Last edited by Keebler; 12-07-2012 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:08 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Keebler: I'm still re-reading this trying to see what you said to set NSGSplatmaster off.

What you recommended in your post would actually be a lot of fun. No equipment worries at all, just go out and play some paintball. Of course players tend to be in love with their equipment and refuse to use anything else, and would refuse to play. I would do it though.

Perhaps an offshoot - when field owners/refs see a guy with top-end equipment walking onto the field with some newbies/walk-ons, he hands the guy a VL-200 and says "use it, or sit this one out". Again, unfortunately, many would simply find another field, and the owner would be out some money.

It's difficult. The best we can really do is lead by example, play well, play fair, and be a good sport, and help out other players (even the guys on the other team). Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) gets a paintball-"snob" angrier than 1) getting eliminated by a guy with a "crappy gun" and the 2) the guy with the crappy gun finds him after the game and says "Nice game". Well maybe "Gun not workin? I have some tools you can borrow, even a butane soldering iron. Help yourself, Bro." (this AFTER he lit me up - and it was NOT what I wanted to say, but the effect was positive).
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