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Old 02-18-2013, 06:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Alpha, can you print a very high resolution paintball substitute for a test of this nature?

An OD of .686 would be very nice.

Ty
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Brass Freak compatible and Equation inserts in .665, .670, .675, .678, .680 and .685

Current Freak compatible inserts in stock:
.665 = 0, .670 = 16, .675 = 3, .678 = 4, .680 = 4, .682 = 4, .685 = 11

Still selling brass tubing, with .678 barrel stock now available!

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:19 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I have a solution. Let me get back at you later.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:22 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Sweet!

Ty
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Brass Monkey Customs

Brass Freak compatible and Equation inserts in .665, .670, .675, .678, .680 and .685

Current Freak compatible inserts in stock:
.665 = 0, .670 = 16, .675 = 3, .678 = 4, .680 = 4, .682 = 4, .685 = 11

Still selling brass tubing, with .678 barrel stock now available!

My feedback: MCB - eBay - AO
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:15 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spider! View Post
I don't think there is a question here about whether bore finish matters, but more about how we can quantify the effects and how they come about (friction, vibration, rotation, etc.)

One of your hypotheses was that the ball vibrated less side to side on a smoother barrel. I submit that it is just as possible that the ball vibrates less forward and backward as it chatters (or not) down a clean barrel. If you have ever pushed a tight cleaning rod though a rough rifle barrel, you know what I mean.

One thing that might be easier to investigate (besides barrels), is simply measure the friction of paintball gelatin on various surfaces and finishes. With a setup to measure friction of a spring loaded paintball pressed on a flat surface, you could easily change the substrate with various metals and coatings. While the overall friction factor would be interesting, it would be nice to have something to pick up the vibration as well if you could actually catch the ball chattering on the surface.
True, but there isn't anything to block, reflect and magnify forward/rearward motion as there is side to side.

I know I come off sounding like a drama queen to you guys, but I've had more time to consider the wider implications.
There's 3 basic possibilities.

It's the level of finish. This has been my default asumption so far and it's the safest. Hearing skepticism from those having access to smooth barrels scares me.

It's some slappy croshatch or oil effect. Worst case.

It's some combo of 1 and 2, this is as bad as 2.

Because if it's 2 or 3, then everyone who's tossed down cash for the best barrel money can buy got rooked and noone in his right mind would use anything except the free stock barrel from here to eternity. Sizer kits, barrel match, rifling for anything but first strikes would give you a less accurate barrel unless you honed them too. In which case you'd have spent a lot for looks and no gain. Some will, hey I have! Not many though...

Aftermarket barrels would mostly sit on the shelf next to the magic box for automags...
Every company would have one of these hones and a new normal would take over.

Rob
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Did Poison Products 'super-hone' their barrels? They were suppose to be as smooth as glass. I never got my hands on their Poison Arrow barrel kit, but have heard they were really nice.

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I think finish will go hand-in-hand with bore size, since most paint is at least a little elliptical at the seam. It only has to be a few thousandths out of round to make major changes in contact surface area with small bore changes. The tighter the bore, the more difference you would see on surface finish.

One of TK's or Glen Palmer's glass barrel videos shows the ball pivoting as it moves down the barrel. As an elliptical ball pivots, the air leakage around the ball varies. I think this is what makes "right bored" barrels less consistent. It's also possible that surface finish reduces the pivoting of the ball in the barrel, resulting in fewer down range changes. Tighter and larger bores would both reduce the amount of pivoting on any finish, but surface finish would also contribute.

I would also expect the coefficient of friction to be different between gelatin and reballs, FS rounds or printed plastic. The reballs should be the worst; the only ones I have seen are rubbery. This has also been a long contention with brass barrels (less friction).

Alpha, if you print any balls, how about a 68 cal whiffle ball? Maybe not as many holes, but it might be fun. Maybe an FS round with whistle fins.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:11 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I have a Poison Arrow kit and it's true the internal bores on the stainless back inserts are very well finished, to the point where the manual recommends slight underboring rather than a match. A lot of this seems to be more about the 'self-cleaning' properties and 'built in squeegee' as it states the close fit helps a ball self-clean the barrel. It shoots just fine and I do sometimes use the shortest tip on rainy days when it always raises eyebrows, but I can't say I've seen any magic. Then again I am more in the 'tube is a tube is a tube' camp. Except Palmers
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:44 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Ty,

The double-blind test sounds good. Indeed, if it seems wise to you, why not mark the barrels in a way that keeps the process going? Maybe (for instance) a hash mark on one and an asterisk on the other? That way, we can test the barrels, send you our blind findings, you can record for each, and then unveil the results.

Or, on condition of silence, you can send us the identity of each barrel after we submit results.

Just a thought.

I'd definitely be interested, and am working up a fairly thorough test, but need to sort out some details, and of course, find a slot of time.

Or, maybe some folk might wish to share ideas and discuss testing methods here in advance.

What do you think?
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:22 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I will mark the barrels. Probably 1,2,3

My intention is to create one "stock" barrel, one flexhoned barrels and one "brasso'd" barrel.

To preserve the finish, as it will corrode slowly, I plan to use something like WD40, which can be easily removed before the next person tests it.

The idea is to collect the data in private, so previous data does not contaminate the next data. When we have collected enough data, I will be publishing what we find.

This week will be the build a barrel week.

Ty
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Brass Monkey Customs

Brass Freak compatible and Equation inserts in .665, .670, .675, .678, .680 and .685

Current Freak compatible inserts in stock:
.665 = 0, .670 = 16, .675 = 3, .678 = 4, .680 = 4, .682 = 4, .685 = 11

Still selling brass tubing, with .678 barrel stock now available!

My feedback: MCB - eBay - AO
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Just do freak inserts... Less work. Everyone has a platform to use it with.

Hell. .. Less shipping weight.
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