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Old 03-10-2013, 11:50 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Not trying to pick on you, Nightstar, but you posted the quotes that were the easiest to reply to, despite several other people posting similar things.

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No I do not. Not doing an honorable thing doesn't make one dishonorable. False dichotomy. Even if I dismiss the fallacy honor is subjective.
Well if you think it's honorable to call out when the rules say you're in, and if honor isn't subjective, then I guess you're just wrong. Besides, I'm pretty sure GB's point is that all this talk about doing the "honorable thing" by calling yourself out on a bounce is indicative of a "holier-than-thou" attitude. You might not go so far as to say that someone who plays on after a bounce is "dishonorable", but your logic makes it clear that you view it as "not honorable". That's just semantics, really.

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As I stated earlier "the rules" vary...
Of course. There's the basic rules, being that the paintball has to break and leave a mark on the opponent, and then there's all the other additions or modifications that people/fields add from time to time. But, you weren't talking about a situation where all hits count as out, regardless of break. You were saying how you think it's honorable to call yourself out on a bounce even when the rules don't require it. You even eluded to that when you said "The game has changed over the years and so have the rules, not always for the better", even though that statement didn't really make sense seeing as how the very first paintball game required a paint break.

Look, I get it that if we're playing on a field where bounces count as outs, then it's honorable to call yourself out on a bounce. Not doing so would be the same as wiping on a normal field. But I think it's a safe bet that the vast majority of fields require the paint to break as part of the field rules. And if the rules require a break, then calling yourself out on a bounce is not "the honorable thing to do" or "more honorable" or anything. It's just giving up for some reason or another, and it's a negative for your teammates.



All that said, with the normal ruleset, I'll call myself out on a bounce if 1) I get peppered by someone who's got the drop on me, like mentioned before, or 2) the bounce hurts bad enough, such as shots to the head. I definitely won't call myself out on a bounce on a long-range shot. That just encourages people to play way back all the time, never push forward, never go for objectives, etc. If my opponent can't get in range, or doesn't know their equipment's effective range, that's their fault. If someone knows their equipment's effective range and still shoots beyond it (evidenced by the non-break), then that's the risk they took, and I'm not going to pay them off for it by bowing out.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:23 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
Not trying to pick on you, Nightstar, but you posted the quotes that were the easiest to reply to, despite several other people posting similar things.
I posted the quotes that I took exception too, ease wasn't a factor I did it for the sake of brevity. It's ok if you address my posts, I'm thick skinned when the shots are text, I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you after this. I'll address all your points since you prefer that form.

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Well if you think it's honorable to call out when the rules say you're in, and if honor isn't subjective, then I guess you're just wrong. Besides, I'm pretty sure GB's point is that all this talk about doing the "honorable thing" by calling yourself out on a bounce is indicative of a "holier-than-thou" attitude. You might not go so far as to say that someone who plays on after a bounce is "dishonorable", but your logic makes it clear that you view it as "not honorable". That's just semantics, really.
Your premise is bad, honor is subjective thus the rest of your argument isn't supported. BTW I think you misunderstand what semantic means.


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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
Of course. There's the basic rules, being that the paintball has to break and leave a mark on the opponent, and then there's all the other additions or modifications that people/fields add from time to time. But, you weren't talking about a situation where all hits count as out, regardless of break. You were saying how you think it's honorable to call yourself out on a bounce even when the rules don't require it. You even eluded to that when you said "The game has changed over the years and so have the rules, not always for the better", even though that statement didn't really make sense seeing as how the very first paintball game required a paint break.
Another bad premise, as stated earlier the rules vary. Furthermore elusive as I may be I allude to nothing, I stated my opinion clearly.

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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
Look, I get it that if we're playing on a field where bounces count as outs, then it's honorable to call yourself out on a bounce. Not doing so would be the same as wiping on a normal field. But I think it's a safe bet that the vast majority of fields require the paint to break as part of the field rules. And if the rules require a break, then calling yourself out on a bounce is not "the honorable thing to do" or "more honorable" or anything. It's just giving up for some reason or another, and it's a negative for your teammates.
Once again honor is subjective. It's entirely possible for one to see honor in an act another sees as dishonorable. Take for example the custom of honor killings in some cultures. Oh ya, you employed an ad populum there.



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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
All that said, with the normal ruleset, I'll call myself out on a bounce if 1) I get peppered by someone who's got the drop on me, like mentioned before, or 2) the bounce hurts bad enough, such as shots to the head. I definitely won't call myself out on a bounce on a long-range shot. That just encourages people to play way back all the time, never push forward, never go for objectives, etc. If my opponent can't get in range, or doesn't know their equipment's effective range, that's their fault. If someone knows their equipment's effective range and still shoots beyond it (evidenced by the non-break), then that's the risk they took, and I'm not going to pay them off for it by bowing out.
I don't expect you to conform to my standards nor shall I conform to yours. I'm sure you have your reasons for calling yourself out w/o a break. Needing to piss would be reason enough.

I generally play close quarters paintball, longballing doesn't exist. Engagement often occurs at less than 20' which is within the rules of the field. I'll call a bounce when hit and let the other player have the elimination he's earned. I don't feel bad about waiting out the rest of the round in the dead box.

Once in a tactical entry situation I had a cqb gunfight with multiple opponents. I clearly hit one, the other I didn't hit at all, I felt no hit. One of my opponents was shooting a .43 Eraser(I later found paint on my mag holder). All three of us called ourselves out smiling and had a nice chat in the dead box. Honorable? It felt that way to me and frankly I don't give a **** what anyone else thinks.

Wear whatever you want if it's within the scope of the rules. Stay in when hit if it's within the scope of the rules and you want to. I'm not here to be your moral compass I'm just providing perspective with my opinion.

Last edited by Nightstar; 03-11-2013 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:41 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Give it a rest, all that matters is if your having fun, if your not then stop playing. People wear padding for a number of reasons, they bruise easily, they play aggressively, they wish to encourage bounces, etc. If it breaks your out, if not play on until you take a break or are tired of the being pelted by cheap paint that wont broke. Regardless, have fun. Oh, and in before the lock.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:19 AM   #84 (permalink)
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No, not whatever. Sport is strictly for the sake of competition. Games are meant to be fun. The incentives are radically different as are the participants and often the rules.
I really am not seeing the distinction here. What do you mean the incentives for the sport of paintball differ from the game of paintball? Can you be ... specific?

Because now I'm unclear as to what exactly I'm engaged in when I go play...

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No I do not. Not doing an honorable thing doesn't make one dishonorable. False dichotomy. Even if I dismiss the fallacy honor is subjective.
I think we are all expected to behave honorably.

Any behavior which is not up to that expectation, seems to fall into dishonor.

Where exactly the line is drawn can vary, but there doesn't seem to be a way to draw the line such that, "Well, that wasn't honorable, but that's OK."

Like I said, I do not think it's necessary or beneficial to even bring up this honor business in the first place as it's irrelevant. It really does sound largely self-congratulatory. Honor isn't something you flippantly brandish on a forum in the first person...

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As I stated earlier "the rules" vary, hence barrel tags, training knives, etc. Regarding bringing a knife to a gunfight, I've gotten eliminations with my training knife...
Yes. That's why it's not gunfighting.



I couldn't help but think of this thread as I bounced two critical shots off an opponent today. ("Boy, I wonder what the MCB'ers would think of this!") He was wearing camo, my apparent bane. We were totally within range, and I wasn't using crappy paint. I fell asleep on the job and he took our flank. I bounced one off of him, regrouped, bounced a second one off of him, and finally he got me.

No honor was involved or necessary. All rules were followed, refs were there to confirm lack of breakage, and everybody had a damn good time.
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Last edited by GoatBoy; 03-11-2013 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:24 AM   #85 (permalink)
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When I have played at public fields, I am shocked at just how many shots bounce. It seems to me the way fields buy paint is one of the biggest issues with paint not breaking. As fields buy in such bulk (to keep their costs down) and then it takes a LONG time to sell it all. It is typically stored in a non climate controlled area, AND not turned. Plus they often buy discounted paint... And it is not good paint...

Where guys buying fresh paint to play at my field, (as long as it is decent paint) seem to get lots more breaks. (plus we play in the cold, and colder weather makes paint more brittle)

But, regardless of that, the thing that is strange to me, is that when hit on the side of your body/head/arms/legs, the paintball glances, sure it may have broken, but since it hit the side of you and didn't stop, you typically won't have a large paint mark on you, if a mark at all... The paintball broke, but the fill and shell kept on going past you...


For example, that kid I shot last year at a scenario that I posted the video of him wiping.

He gets hit in the head, and the paintball breaks, but doesn't leave a visible mark on his mask, as the paintball broke, but broke and bounced and landed on his hoodie... The paint left a large paint mark (not where it hit him, but he was clearly marked) He then went and wiped it off. So clearly he should have been out.

He then dead man walks out with the other guys I shot, and at the last second turns and fires at me. I hit him again, and he hits the bunker in front of me... The paint breaks and the splatter from that bounce hits me and I am called out by the ref... So I was never hit, and yet called out, and he was hit and wasn't called out.

But, what about the shots where it hits you and breaks, but the paint flies on past and lands on the ground?

According to the official rules, you are still in on those shots. When a. you where hit, b. the ball broke but c. it didn't leave a big enough mark, as the paint kept on moving past you from the glancing blow.

I have been hit at closer than 20 feet many times, and it is crazy how many of those shots bounce. I have also been hit at 300 feet away and looked down to see paint on my pants from the super long range shot...

It is just totally random, and when paint isn't breaking it makes for a bad day for the guys shooting that garbage, and hurts a ton more when you pick up all those bounces.

I don't think someone following the rules is being "dishonorable" or that me playing the way I do is "more honorable"... I just personally have adopted the "if you get a good clean shot on me and it bounces, I am out. Because you got me." As I decided that is my personal ethical standard for paintball, I certainly don't expect others to hold to that same standard. I also don't cuss when playing, doesn't mean I look down on others that do cuss...

Course I typically play as a lone wolf, so I'm not affecting a "team" with a decision like that, and it is a personal preference, and furthers my goal of playing with a high level of sportsmanship.

Sure that may be a dumb, pointless thing to do, but I personally think it makes me a better player.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:39 AM   #86 (permalink)
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But are you doing this in a mil-sim game where everyone else is alright with this? I wear a harness vest so I notice when folks complain about 'mil-simmers and their padded vests' at recball games.
yes, but id do it anyways. i dont complain if a guy uses an ego in a milsim game, i just adapt and call up my heavy gunner to keep him down.
im sure we have all been to games where there are a bunch of "pro players" all wearing rubber clothing. i dont complain about the bouncy gear they have, or the ramping death dildos they shoot. each style of play has its benefits and drawbacks as i see it. but so long as we all make an honourable judgement call here and there i think we can all find a common ground and have fun.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:34 PM   #87 (permalink)
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To be honest, I might sound like a wimp, but I like to wear padding not so much for the bounces as for that it decreases pain. It really helps too when there's arrogant speedballers on the field. I mean, you don't need to fire 10 shots at me everytime a sliver of my head pops out.....
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I see an agglet and I want to paint it black...
...or yellow, orange, green; whatever the field paint is that day.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:28 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Players have fast guns, want cheap paint. That usually translates into bounces, then into overshooting "to get paint to break". Getting overshot usually leads to more people wanting to protect themselves, meaning more padding, then more bounces, then more overshooting.
Kind of a dumb circle. If the people want to spend the $ on a fast gun/hopper combo, spend the $ for decent paint. You'll actually shoot less, because it will break on target quicker than the cheap bounce paint.
I think this is a good description of what's happened at the start up field I got going last summer but... The group seems to like the arms race and hail of paint. I maybe shouldn't have invited the residents of the local funny farm. Oh well as long as they are having fun I think I will leave things alone
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:19 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I think this thread is more towards the line of "padding vs excessive padding"

It's your first time playing paintball, sure i can understand someone wearing extra layers.
You're a 10 year "veteran" and still wearing 3inches of clothing when it's not even cold? That's just cheating in my eyes.

Also I have no problem with those newer style padded vests with the really thin chest and back padding. The only time i hit them in the chest or back is while they're getting bunkered, so it's really not a problem.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:53 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Took one of those M203 .43 bursts to the back a few weeks back....I, uh, didn't wait around to see if they burst.
I've got no beef with players wanting to protect themselves with padding, after that I was giving it some serious thought and to be fair, over-padding doesn't really seem to be a problem over here - most people in the scenario paintball scene are either wearing tac-vests or speedball gear to accomodate all their pods.

I guess if there were a particular player wearing an EOD suit or something, poeple would get annoyed, but surely you'd just know to shoot that particular player on his gun or mask.

Incidentally, did the OP ever solve the problem at his field?
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