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Old 04-30-2013, 03:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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To me, it's not neccesarily stagnate, it's more of a monopoly.

Fewer companies, more products from those companies.

Main example: empire.

I honestly wish it was like older times when you had a ton of different companies that each had there own individual designs that they brought to the feild and marketed, instead of now where every other marker looks the same and the only difference is minor improvements here and there.

I wish ICD was still around,
I wish WDP was still around,
If WGP made the products the way they did in the late 90's/ early 2000's, I wish they were back.

That's just how I feel.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:22 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My theory about AGD and WGP is they actually put themselves out of the market. They perfected their products to the point that everyone who wanted one had one. They built their stuff so well that a 10 year old emag or eblade would have no problem holding their own in any tournament today.

Both AGD and WGP had a mantra of making parts compatible across model years (WGP by default since their design was already based on a popular model platform around long before WGP). Those two companies had so much success back in the day that the market is flooded with parts. Anyone can build a cocker or mag in any combination that would cost less money then if AGD or WGP started producing and selling again.

Now for the industry to be successful they are incorporating 2 business models:

Planned obsolescence - as we see in the high end electronic markers, make them like iphones, if they aren't the latest they're not the best, despite doing the same stuff as the previous generations. Stop making parts for them after a few years to ensure the old models stay obsolete.

changing the game - we are seeing a shift moving away from hoppers. Whether it's tube fed stock class or clip fed milsim I think people have wanted to play a more active form of paintball then staying in one place and spraying and praying. Having a hopper impairs how fast you can move and how you move you marker. Playing without hoppers changes the pace and strategy of the game, less paint (lower price) and more movement (more exciting).

It's obvious which one is going to be more successful.

Last edited by boo; 04-30-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boo View Post
My theory about AGD and WGP is they actually put themselves out of the market. They perfected their products to the point that everyone who wanted one had one. They built their stuff so well that a 10 year old emag or eblade would have no problem holding their own in any tournament today.

Both AGD and WGP had a mantra of making parts compatible across model years (WGP by default since their design was already based on a popular model platform around long before WGP). Those two companies had so much success back in the day that the market is flooded with parts. Anyone can build a cocker or mag in any combination that would cost less money then if AGD or WGP started producing and selling again.

Now for the industry to be successful they are incorporating 2 business models:

Planned obsolescence - as we see in the high end electronic markers, make them like iphones, if they aren't the latest they're not the best, despite doing the same stuff as the previous generations. Stop making parts for them after a few years to ensure the old models stay obsolete.

changing the game - we are seeing a shift moving away from hoppers. Whether it's tube fed stock class or clip fed milsim I think people have wanted to play a more active form of paintball then staying in one place and spraying and praying. Having a hopper impairs how fast you can move and how you move you marker. Playing without hoppers changes the pace and strategy of the game, less paint (lower price) and more movement (more exciting).

It's obvious which one is going to be more successful.
But AGD and WGP where both operating on a business model that assumed the sport would grow. It was only when the sport quit growing that the flaws in that model became apparent. They were not concerned that player A would not be replacing his or her mag because they expected player B to buy a new one. In the future player C would. The fault only became apparent when they could not find the hypothetical player D (or however far it went)
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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At least we are now seeing more benefits of CNC machining and high tech plastics. Some of the designs are no longer modular because they are highly integrated. Companies don't design just regulators and valves anymore, they design the entire marker end-to-end.

Even better is that some of that CNC is starting to make its way to us in some fancy custom parts.

Not only has the market matured, but manufacturing has changed. Once the machines and/or 3D printers advance some more, manufacturing will change again. We have a large base of CAD capable people now, they just need a physical output.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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At least we are now seeing more benefits of CNC machining and high tech plastics. Some of the designs are no longer modular because they are highly integrated. Companies don't design just regulators and valves anymore, they design the entire marker end-to-end.

Even better is that some of that CNC is starting to make its way to us in some fancy custom parts.

Not only has the market matured, but manufacturing has changed. Once the machines and/or 3D printers advance some more, manufacturing will change again. We have a large base of CAD capable people now, they just need a physical output.
The 3d printing is covered too, if you know where to look. The item teased in my signature banner was designed by me and the prototype printed by another member. I also used an online company (shapeways.com) to have some higher quality parts printed.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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But AGD and WGP where both operating on a business model that assumed the sport would grow. It was only when the sport quit growing that the flaws in that model became apparent.

I am an Autococker Fanatic (See sig)...

That said, IMO WGP failed because they failed to innovate... Stay with the times as it were...

The 'Cocker was great because it was one of the first semi-auto's, a pump gun converted.

But converting that ad-hoc system into yet another ad-hoc system to make it electro was just like hiring Rube Goldberg to blow paint down a barrel.

After the Autococker, WGP should have built a electro from the ground up about a decade ago. The fanbase would have been there, as the tourney customer base.

Instead, they drove the workhorse of the product line into the ground... losing R&D ground to other companies, and losing customers slowly as their customer-base aged... MUCH like Harley-Davidson over these last 20-30 years.


I'll still rock the 'Cocker on the field forever... its like owning and maintaining a classic sports car!

But I do it for the love of the mechanical art and zen that goes with maintaining a perfectly working machine...

I still can see the flaws in the long-term strategies of WGP in this case.

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Old 05-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The only advancements I know of are mag fed first strike markers there has been a explosion of new markers that can fire First Strikes but I don't think at least for now there is much else that can be done for speed ball speedballers hate anything different and what they have cant really be improved upon.

Last edited by crisscross1993; 05-01-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:54 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boo View Post
My theory about AGD and WGP is they actually put themselves out of the market. They perfected their products to the point that everyone who wanted one had one. They built their stuff so well that a 10 year old emag or eblade would have no problem holding their own in any tournament today.

Both AGD and WGP had a mantra of making parts compatible across model years (WGP by default since their design was already based on a popular model platform around long before WGP). Those two companies had so much success back in the day that the market is flooded with parts. Anyone can build a cocker or mag in any combination that would cost less money then if AGD or WGP started producing and selling again.
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That said, IMO WGP failed because they failed to innovate... Stay with the times as it were...
I'm confused. Last I checked AGD is still around happily selling mags.

As for WGP, my memory is quite different. The only reason anyone bought a cocker was because of how upgradeable they were and how parts were compatible with many 3rd party manufacturers, such as CCM. They were for tinkerers. When K2 bought up WGP they completely misunderstood the market and the role of the cocker. They sent cease and desist letters to companies producing cockers with compatible parts, such as CCM, destroying the main appeal of their gun: upgradability and compatibility across manufacturers. Then they made the Trilogy, which no one really wanted. Why would anyone get a cocker that couldn't have it's pneus upgraded?

The fact that cockers were durable and backward compatible isn't what killed them. It was the only reason people bought one instead of a lighter, faster, marker. It was K2 breaking from this mantra that killed WGP.

Last edited by AustinNH; 05-01-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:04 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Is AGD actually making new parts when they need to, or is it all NOS?
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:31 PM   #30 (permalink)
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As much as I don't like Smart Parts, they did something right when it came to actually making markers.

Their first marker was the PVI Shocker around 97 or so. Although not made by them, they had it for about a year, before they caused PVI to lose on that end, bought up everything for it, and then changed it to the second generation Shocker, which was only a bit smaller and had few options for the board, if you bought the one that did it.

The only improvement that they did after that was to go from a side angled feed to a vertical feed. At least until the Shocker SFT came out.

The Shocker SFT came out in 2003 or so? Look at that gap. And look at the Shocker 4x4 versus the Shocker SFT. The only thing that they had in common was the name and that Smart Parts came out with them.

The next Shocker NXT came out around 2007 or so? Again, you have several years of a gap, they didn't release a new model every year, that was slightly smaller, maybe a bit of different milling. They just kept making private label Shockers, until they came out with the NXT. They made new private labels for them as well.

Honestly, the Luxe is the next generation Shocker. When it came out, they even stated that it was an updated Shocker engine. It is everything that they were going to do in the next generation Shocker, to get it into the $1000+ club that the Shockers weren't in. Hell, they finally added in different modes on the Shockers board, and gave it a clamping feedneck. But the price dropped from $800 to $500. It goes to show you, the DLX Luxe is overpriced. Yes, it is nice in the ergo department, and the fact that you don't have to degass to remove the bolt train, and do it without tools is great as well. But when the parent marker was selling for $500, you can't tell me that having the tool less removal of eye covers, a talking circuit board, no macro air system, and the ability to remove the bolt train without tools makes it a $1000 better marker than the Shocker NXT.

But in the end, since it's inception back in 96 or 97, the Shocker has had three to four changes, and this is in a total time period of 16 years. There wasn't the 2004 Shocker, the 2005 Shocker, the 2006 Shocker.

But when it comes to the Matrix, once DYE took it over, you have the DM3, DM4, DM5, DMC, DM6, and so on. They just made it a bit smaller every year, in some cases, they didn't even make it smaller, they just changed the milling on it.

Bob got it fairly right, in that when he came out with the Intimidator, he updated the platform every couple of years, and there were changes that were fairly evident between the platforms as well. From the Classic to the 2K2 stuff, you have a more standardized grip, and only one LPR. From the 2K2 to Alias, you have a slightly moved forward grip and a front block that integrates the LPR with a volumizer. Let's not mention the fourth gen stuff, as there were alot of problems with them. But when you get to the fifth gen, you have a smaller body that integrated the VASA/LPR housing into the body, and four eyes. Now, with the sixth gen, he has integrated the air lines into the body, and gets incredibly nice and consistent efficiency.
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