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Old 05-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I've been debating a TM-7 for a while. I normally play pump/mech semi and I down own 1 electro (2003 gameface imp) but it rarely comes out. With that said might be nice to have something with 3rd burst or a capped auto mode for big games/scemarios where auto is allowed and if you're not running it you're horribly outgunned*

*in terms of sheer firewpower I've never felt truly outgunned if I run my A/T CCM'd sniper against electros or faster mechs but when you have 500+ people on the opposing side sometimes it's difficult to let your skills come out since there is so much paint in the air
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Justus View Post
With differences in functionality like that, it could only be considered a downgrade if the equipment itself had some objective flaw making it inferior.

I'd openly just call it a downgrade as he switched from a center-feed to a right-feed while still retaining the hopper, plus all the extra material on the backside of the grip is probably going to cause ergonomic issues. Like, even more so than the clacking back block of an Autococker, which is impressive, but in a bad sort of way. Video or photographic documentation would probably bear this out.

For instance, this is what it's like to hold a TM-7 via the stock:



Not too bad. Not my preference, but not too terribly bad.

But this is what it looks like when you don't use the stock:



Awkward.

Want to make it more awkward? Throw a painfully short 35ci tank on there.


There are possibly some other legitimate reasons to call it a downgrade. They weren't mentioned though. The "downgrade" stuff was more along the lines of modern-day humble bragging.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
There are possibly some other legitimate reasons to call it a downgrade. They weren't mentioned though. The "downgrade" stuff was more along the lines of modern-day humble bragging.
Considering the fact that he said up front that he thought of it as a downgrade because it TAKES THE SKILL OUT OF PAINTBALL, yes there was some humble bragging in there. Does it negate his review? No. Does it help it? yes, because it gives us some semblance of where he's coming from.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:02 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moving_target View Post
Considering the fact that he said up front that he thought of it as a downgrade because it TAKES THE SKILL OUT OF PAINTBALL, yes there was some humble bragging in there. Does it negate his review? No. Does it help it? yes, because it gives us some semblance of where he's coming from.
I missed the humble part...

Also, the game could do with fewer "soldiers", IMHO. I play for fun; sometimes that's with a PPS, sometimes it's with a Viking. Calling the faster of the two a "downgrade" seems... sorry, let me rework that. Calling the faster of the two a "downgrade" seems asinine and pointless. Though they share a purpose, they employ totally different styles of play, strategy, ergonomics, loadouts, etc. It would be kind of like saying a car is a "downgrade" from a bicycle. Both get you from one location to another, sure, but one is clearly less convenient and requires lots more "skill" on the part of the user (or at least more manual input). I sincerely doubt a cyclist would argue that it's a comparison worth making.

Anyhow, the OP is entitled to his/her opinion and that's all well and good. This is the part I take serious issue with:

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Originally Posted by Venarius View Post
Now to the part Iím sure some scoffed at...

"WHY is an ELECTRO a DOWNGRADE?!"
Don't insult our intelligence.The implication is we're 12 year olds who think the person with the fastest gun will win the day. I think it's safe to say this board represents a wide cross-section of play styles and the vast majority of it understands that certain types of marker have advantages (and shortcomings) when compared to others. The conveyed superiority complex of someone turning their nose up at an electro is no more noble than the player who believes increased rate of fire makes them better than someone with a semi/pump.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moving_target View Post
Considering the fact that he said up front that he thought of it as a downgrade because it TAKES THE SKILL OUT OF PAINTBALL, yes there was some humble bragging in there. Does it negate his review? No. Does it help it? yes, because it gives us some semblance of where he's coming from.
OK I'm really detecting more of a linguistic issue here rather than ideological. So let's try to clear this up.

The phrase "up front" usually has a connotation of coming... near the beginning or the start. The part where he mentions it taking the skill out of paintball is actually toward the "end" of the review. Might want to re-read the review. Or did you read the review backwards? Most of us go top-to-bottom, left-to-right. (When reading English.)

Second, I used the words "legitimate" and "downgrade". I can't tell if you're having difficulty with the "legitimate" part or the "downgrade" part, but saying a gun is a downgrade because it makes the game too easy is... not exactly consistent with what most people consider the word "downgrade" to mean.

For instance, if Venarius is destroying the noob rentals with his mech Autococker and the field owner asks him to take it down a notch and he responds, "Sure, I'll just downgrade my gun to the TM-7", that might be a little weird.

All in all, it doesn't help the review. It does help us understand where the author is coming from, but the problem is that place appears to be an alternate reality.
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He posts videos of himself on Youtube never leaving the furthest back bunker.
Even when playing against rental noobs, he is immobilized.
Logic and reason are anathema to him; but this does not deter him from prattling on.
He is the most interesting player in the world.

Last edited by GoatBoy; 05-09-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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On that note, how do you like playing with a hopper-right marker?
No real difference. I sight down the side of the barrel anyway. And I used to own a rf Cocker, so I'm 'used to it' anyway.

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With differences in functionality like that, it could only be considered a downgrade if the equipment itself had some objective flaw making it inferior.
It seems like a few of you are hung up on the downgrade thing.

Let me put it to you this way... (anyone like motorcycles?)

When judging the rider, I would respect the 600RR rider who beats the 1000RR rider MORE than I would respect 1000cc rider if he beats the smaller biker.

What about cars? Again, most people would consider a Auto corvette a downgrade even though it can shift faster than a stick-shift...

There is something to be said about the person's 'connectedness' to the machine. Every step that removes that 'connectedness' can be considered a downgrade to some... ( I know a 16 year old who goes on and on about how fuel injection is a downgrade... Cars w/carbs will work even if an EMP goes off...)

So it's really all relative.

Let me brake it down for you easier...

mech Cocker vs TM7

Firing modes: Upgrade
Weight: Upgrade
Semi Firing rate : about equal/ small upgrade
Reliability: Downgrade (hope it doesn't rain...)
Fix-it-ability: Downgrade (I can fix every single part of the autococker myself... but I'm not an electrician with a soldering gun on hand)



What I was trying to say in the original post was this...

If we are judging players, not equipment, chances are (by my experience) the person who started on Mechs/pumps will be the better player WHEN OTHER VARIABLES ARE EQUAL (when both players are given an electro).

So if you want to be a good player, don't start out electro.

If you want to be a skilled driver, don't buy a Lamborghini for your first car, learn how to corner in a S2000, MR2, or even a Civic for gods-sake.

If you want to be a skilled motorcyclist, don't start out on a liter bike, learn how to be a proficient rider on a 600cc bike...

The theme is the same. Learn your basics before you equip yourself with gear that can overcome shortcomings in those basics.

If you want to progress to be the best you can be, you have to start at the bottom and learn the basics, not jump in at the middle, and overcome your short-falls with equipment.

And here's your $0.98 cents back.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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To those that asked as to how I hold the TM7 normally (with fore-grip folded), and how it looks to use a small tank as the stock...










You can see how close my mask gets to the gun... Initially I tried using the stock further out, but it got in the way of getting nice and tight with the gun. As I said, when I do open it up (Tech-T bolt maybe??) I plan on removing the stock entirely. It looks like they included a back-cap for this purpose in the tool kit.

Also, that Barrel is a 14" barrel I already had... might go out and get a 10-12 inch barrel to make it the setup more tight. The 9" or whatever stock barrel is too short for great accuracy IMO, and rather loud. With the J&J it's much much quieter...
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Last edited by Venarius; 05-09-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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OK that doesn't actually look too bad. Removing that stock looks like it will give you the clearance you need. Thanks for the pics!
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He posts videos of himself on Youtube never leaving the furthest back bunker.
Even when playing against rental noobs, he is immobilized.
Logic and reason are anathema to him; but this does not deter him from prattling on.
He is the most interesting player in the world.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:33 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Venarius View Post
It seems like a few of you are hung up on the downgrade thing.
To be fair, it's a term that's being used non-traditionally and with a specific purpose (as evidenced by you posting a clarification).

I don't disagree that (some) pumpers develop a deeper range of skills than (some) players that use electros. I'm also willing to bet there are players who only ever shoot tourney guns that have excellent fundamentals which is why I'm not a fan of generalizing sets of players wholesale. The comparison feels unneeded but, then again, my opinion isn't strictly necessary either, lol.

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And here's your $0.98 cents back.
Thank goodness - it's laundry day!
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
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well.. the title caught my eye. OP: nice points - no critique here. carry on.

my issue with the whole electro thing is the drama that follows. out little outlaw group plays a very restrictive version of the game: no pods, pads or batteries. On occasion a new guest will plead his case to for an exception (usually for allowing his electro) and just like magic 2 hours later the same guy will be whining about something... and I really hate the whining. Its a pattern that had repeated itself over and over to where I've grown intolerant....

My kid has a group of guys he brings over to to play airsoft. Most have the typical stuff you find at the big box stores, but on occasion some kid who plays the airsoft version of tournaments/scenarios will play and bring his mailorder airsoft ubergat and instantly outclass the other kids... and what pattern do I see?? two hours later its the ubergat kid that does the whining.

OP: Less IS more. /end speech.
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