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Old 05-21-2013, 05:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
I don't know if that's going to happen. I hear more and more field owners getting into 50 cal and apparently there is a new 50 cal rental being released at World Cup this year. I think 50 cal will be more easily attainable than 43 cal for a while.
I guess it remains to be seen.

I would tent to think that with Kingman and GI Milsim, the two companies who made "serious" 50cal markers, having both dropped that caliber, it's not going much further. Paint companies have slowed down, and some are not producing any longer just selling off old stock. Certainly "Splatmaster" has grown in popularity but again I don't view that as sustained popularity of 50cal.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm saying:
A: the 3357 and the success of players using them and the fact that they're being pieced together like zombies and resold as we speak give the lie to the first few.
-Actually, it's a good example. 3357's were, for a long time, almost worthless- to the point of hearing about owners occasionally throwing them away for lack of paint and crappy ballistics/accuracy even when they had it.

The recent resurgence in .50 and the subsequent access to fresh paint did indeed help renew interest in the old guns, but really, there will always be a small group of players that gets a kick out of using antiques.

But if that group isn't big enough to justify a new production run- which, depending on the company could mean a minimum of 10,000 to 50,000 sales- then it's not going to happen, no matter how interested and dedicated that small group is.

The fact that people use them is irrelevant. I can point you to any number of players using old 68 Specials- does that mean if Tippmann tooled up to make a brand-new run of them, that enough people would buy them to justify the production costs?

Or perhaps a better analogy would be the SMG-60. A few people still occasionally run those, and good used examples still sell. Should Tippmann tool up for a new run? Like your pistol idea, SMG's are ammo-limited (15 or 20-rd "stripper clip" magazines) and take a nonstandard caliber (.62).

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B. Pistols are a niche market because making pistols is hard when you can make an easier buck in regular markers.
-Precisely. Manufacturers are in business to make money. It could easily cost anywhere from $150,000 to $500,000 to tool up and start producing an all-new marker. That includes development (paying the idea guy to design the thing in the first place) prototyping, programming CNC machines (or worse, making injection-molds if you want bulk parts and mass production) ordering materials, etc, ad nauseum.

So it simply comes down to the question; do we make a niche-market pistol that might only sell 200-300 units, or a more conventional tourney or milsim marker that'll sell 10,000-25,000?

Look at AGD. Over the years they made something like 250,000 to 300,000 Automags, but only some 5,000 Sydarms (or thereabouts, that number is only an educated guess) and the last handful got fire-saled out just to get 'em off the shelves. And at the time, they were the only holsterable spring-fed semiauto pistol.

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Old 05-21-2013, 05:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Would it be possible to re-barrel a Tiberius and make a custom magazine to accept the smaller rounds for the tradeoff of higher capacity and greater efficiency?
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
Melvin, I'm waiting in line for an airsmith to make just that.
-I'll make you any pistol you want, as long as you're willing to pay for it. You want that Bergmann? I'd love to give it a shot- so to speak- if you're willing to foot the bill.

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Why no UZI? Why no Sten? Why no Scorpion? Why no anything when 1,000's of supposedly artistic people are going to spend even more hours making another version of the same old thing?
-They tried the Mac-10 25 years ago. It failed miserably because it took expensive nonstandard ammo.

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My personal opinion why is the same as it's been since the beginning. It doesn't matter if a market is big or small.
-I'm sorry, but yes, it does. That Bergmann; would you pay $1,500 for it? Cost is major issue- if you had two markers (of whatever style) that were roughly equal in performance, and one sold for $700 and the other for $200, you'll sell three to five times more of the cheaper one. Smart Parts proved that with the Ion, selling literally hundreds of thousands of them, when their "flagship" $1K-plus Nerve failed miserably.

The pistol you propose (Glock-ish, .50 cal, clip fed) would need to sell at less than $250 per unit, and that means mass production, 50K units at a minimum.

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Or maybe it's just a coincidence that machinists always end up making guns that oddly enough fit their style...
You... really don't know how marketing works, do you?

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EDIT: To clarify, it is my position that Doc is Flat Guessing, as no reliable data exists for the size of a market that doesn't get measured. Given the size of Tippmann's pistol biz and Tiberius' biz alone, I would bet alot of money he's guessing flat wrong too.
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-Some of it is indeed an "educated guess". But I know quite well what it costs to get a marker (or even just parts thereof) to market, I know what the average player will tend to pay for a given part/marker, and I'm sure I have at least a decent feel for what players want. I mean, I've only been in the business of providing what players want that the big manufacturers don't produce, for over fifteen years now.

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Old 05-21-2013, 05:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I'd be allover a .68 cal desert eagle paintball pistol. I wonder if someone can make a shell to go over the tpx

and eh, if I had a choice between a .50 cal replica and a .68 cal tipx, unless that .50 cal replica is 150 or less, i'd just go with the 200 dollar tpx.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:15 PM   #26 (permalink)
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There is a market for pistols, its sat there waiting to be exploited. The magfed explosion we're starting to see is going to create a market. Eg "what do you run?" "Tippman tpx" oh, I run a Tibby", "oh" see, the conversations around comparing pistol markers are limited.
DYE made a mag-fed rifle. Why not a pistol next. Why not a GOG pistol using their cool tech? Why the hell haven't MilSig made a pistol yet!!
They don't even have to match a real world pistol too, they can be cool and sci-fi looking, they can feed anyway you want. If they are made they will be bought. There is currently "no market" because nobody makes them!
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Game, set and match to Doc.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JoeJustPlainJoe View Post
Game, set and match to Doc.
-On one side, I'm accused of making up or guessing at numbers, and on the other side, I hear "me and three of my friends occasionally use pistols, so that must mean everybody would buy a pistol if they'd just make one!"

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Old 05-21-2013, 08:01 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post

-Some of it is indeed an "educated guess". But I know quite well what it costs to get a marker (or even just parts thereof) to market, I know what the average player will tend to pay for a given part/marker, and I'm sure I have at least a decent feel for what players want. I mean, I've only been in the business of providing what players want that the big manufacturers don't produce, for over fifteen years now.

Doc.
And of those 15 years how many tons of metal have you removed from autococker bodies because people wanted smaller more compact markers?

Even more niche are pump players and even they want and are willing to pay big bucks for pistols. Look at ducks and avratechs.

I'd agree that deviating calibers is a tough sell but how could you say pistol players are a niche market? I would say it's not the mainstream because nobodies developed anything better then the tippmanns or ta's. Not that their bad but you get what you pay for.

If someone made something unique with a better build quality people would pay. Its been proven with any marker, otherwise we'd all be walking around with spyders and ions. People will always pay for the smallest lightest marker. Think of the evolution from boxy cockers and shockers to the latest electros. The next big thing in the evolution is to go to a smaller size I.e. pistol or smg size.

Can you imagine the market share if you had a super compact marker that appealed to both the mil sim crowd and the high end marker crowd?

Nobodies released it yet because the industry realizes is way more profitable to slap some real steel furniture on a tippmann 98 or sell $1500 shocker and Angel clones without spending any money on engineering the technology beyond where it was 10 years ago.

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Old 05-21-2013, 08:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I for one think the market for a .50 semi-auto pistol of some quality is riper than many people think.
The ammo is readily available at places like Wal-Mart and Academy and of higher quality than in years past.
The main reasons players eschew the T8 and TPX is their extremely low magazine capacity and large size/weight.

The main drawback of .50 paint (its shorter range) is somewhat negated by the fact that pistol play is often at shorter ranges than the average paintball game AND by the fact that many mil-sim players simply would want a pistol to have on their person, even if they don't often use it. Let's be honest, most players would rarely have a reason to draw their sidearm. For that reason, the end-performance of these pistols is actually less important than how the buyer thinks it might perform.

If someone could make a .50 cal pistol of similar quality to a T8 or TPX, have it offer a significantly higher magazine capacity, yet be 30% smaller AND be sold at the same price point I think they would have no trouble moving it.
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