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Old 05-22-2013, 08:50 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Also, this thread makes me want a Squall. Since, y'know, it shoots the same caliber as the markers I already own.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:16 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bloop View Post
I don't know about .50 cal...but there is definitely room out there for pistols. I feel that companies like planet eclipse and dye really have a good chance to make pistols. Possibly pump markers.
For pistols, smaller caliber makes sense. Pistols should be relatively small and players rarely long ball with pistols, so the range doesn't matter as much. All the 68 pistols that I have handled seem much too bulk, but if there were a pistol about 3/4 of the size of what's now available, I'd definitely be looking at picking one up.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:08 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
-The customer, contrary to popular belief, is not always right.

I'm always reminded of when Tom Kaye over at AGD came out with a 'roller trigger" mod for the E-Mag. All it was were two little plates and a roller- you "waggled" your finger over the roller, and could get some impressive rates of fire, even better than a lot of today's players "walking" their e-triggers.

Tom made a small run, sold out immediately. He asked the guys on AO if it was worth making another run. Their response was unanimous- oh hell yes I'll buy one!

So he produced the run, posted them for sale.... and nobody bought any. I seem to recall he said he eventually sold them as scrap.



... here it comes...



-And there is it, an amazing "I'd-better-back-away-from-my-braggadocio-and-fast" pirouette!

Yep, I've been playing 'ball for over 25 years, been a machinist for 20, and been a full-time airsmith for 15, I've invented and marketed a dozen paintball products (at least three of which are currently being sold by other companies, not always with my permission) I've built prototypes for three different paintball companies and I'm currently doing R&D for two more (one of which is a complete, from-the-ground-up new marker for, coincidentally enough, a narrow niche market by a small, flexible company) and I've repaired, if not actually modified, at least one of damn near everything that's ever been used to fire a paintball...

... but by golly, your vague outline of an idea for a marker is just so different that I, naturally, wouldn't even know where to begin.

Doc.
Again allow me to doubly redundantly reiterate, CCM can take a flyer on the SR-1, leading me to believe that a company somewhere could take a flyer on a 50pistol.
I think that they will and we'll know then, so there's no need for us to flagellate the expired equine in endless conjecture.
I retain my opinion that it would be immediately successful, but I understand why you disagree. Time will tell.

As for Tom Kaye's genius that's a funny tack to take with me. He's one of the smartest people I've ever come across but by no means infallible.
Had he spent time on the sydarm instead of the emag as someone suggested at the time, he'd have found the success Tiberius has had filling his pockets instead of the nightmare he got into. He didn't believe in a pistol market any more than you do and suffered for it. Tiberius is going to town on his back. I had to donate the price of a pair of sydarms to my local PD to even borrow and use them!
Neither the customer nor the business owner have any corner on the mistake market.
As to the seperate question of whether I, in particular, am wrong-of course I'm not!


I know exactly who you are and I've been impressed by your work as I said. The fact remains that some poor underpaid guy at RAP4 has more experience with the OFF THE SHELF internals of the pistol I want than you.
Don't take it personally, but this is not in your wheelhouse and there ARE folks who do it all the time.
You're a genius with a grinder, I get it. I'm still not going to have you make a 50pistol or redo the cylinder heads of my car. Not when there are people who've learned the job I'm paying them to do before we meet.
Call it a pirouette all you want.
I would and have recommended you and your products.

There is one other unicorn I'm hunting and you ARE the perfect guy for this one. Someone mentioned the Squall. I ran alot of games with a stroker and found them horrible in the hand and the holster. I've had sheridan pistols since they started and it shot well in spite of the errorgonomics.
The design irked me then and still does. It screams 'I've never played pistol!'.
If you're interested I'd like to show that it's not a lack of faith in your work that makes me get an Airsoft smith for my pistols instead.
I'll supply a P68SC and pay you what you make for your work!

What I'd like is a stroker with a front top load like the sydarm. Since the load is the front, the mag won't need the rear plug. So the rear plug goes away and the ram goes into the back of the mag tube on top. The ram will be above the bolt.
The LPR will go in front of the triggerguard, under a side dropout for the 12gram.
Putting all the same parts on board, but only one tube wide and the same height with a little alaskan magic.


Take my money!
Rob
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Last edited by agentSmith; 05-23-2013 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:23 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
For pistols, smaller caliber makes sense. Pistols should be relatively small and players rarely long ball with pistols, so the range doesn't matter as much. All the 68 pistols that I have handled seem much too bulk, but if there were a pistol about 3/4 of the size of what's now available, I'd definitely be looking at picking one up.
I guess if my pistol was merely a tacticool accessory/oh **** gun I'd be looking to shrink it down. I run pistol primary so mine has to be effective at all ranges. That pretty much rules out anything but 68.

I'm no giant but I guess I just have big hands, My Tibs are comfortable and point naturally.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:04 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
Had he spent time on the sydarm instead of the emag as someone suggested at the time, he'd have found the success Tiberius has had filling his pockets instead of the nightmare he got into.
-Wait, what? The Sydarm was available for roughly a decade before the EMag came out, and was still available years afterward when the last of them were fire-saled out for lack of demand.

And "nightmare"? What nightmare? AGD made Tom, if not filthy rich, at least very comfortably well off, to the point he decided to sell off what was left in order to pursue his hobby interests like paleontology and astronomy, full time.

If it's a "nightmare" to retire comfortably from the proceeds of your inventions, somebody grab me a deep-dish stuffed-crust with anchovies. It's time for me to hit the sack.

Quote:
He didn't believe in a pistol market any more than you do and suffered for it.
-You might want to check you meds. Or up the voltage, maybe. If you look at one of the original included-with-every-Automag VHS videos, originally recorded in 1990 or so, they demo a prototype Sydarm at the end. The gun was officially available for sale in 1991 or so- when the very concept of a semiauto that didn't require stripper clips was literally only a couple of years old.

So developing and marketing a holsterable spring-fed semiauto pistol back when there were only three semiauto anythings, which most players at the time had never even seen in person, is "not believing in the pistol market"?

Quote:
Tiberius is going to town on his back.
-Again, what? Tom was closing down and moving on before Tiberius really got started. It's great that Tiberius is doing well, but AGD had been producing Sydarms for about 15 years by that point.

Quote:
I know exactly who you are and I've been impressed by your work as I said. The fact remains that some poor underpaid guy at RAP4 has more experience with the OFF THE SHELF internals of the pistol I want than you.
-Oh yes, I'm sure. Again, your design is just so revolutionary that it's nothing at all like any stacked-valve blowback, inline spooler, pneumatically-recocked poppet valve, dump-chamber or Nelson-based marker that has ever existed.

Oh, wait- you didn't specify a method of operation at all! You just said it needed to look like a 1911, run on 12 grams, and accept JT magazines. You didn't say it had to be a blowback, or use a spool valve, or be based off of some existing mechanism. Basically it could be a clean-sheet-of-paper design.

And I'm doing exactly that, for pay, on two separate markers, as we speak.

Quote:
Don't take it personally, but this is not in your wheelhouse and there ARE folks who do it all the time.
-And I don't? I've been a full-time airsmith for fifteen years. Working on paintball guns is my day job, my hobby, and how I relax in my spare time. And when I'm not in the shop I'm drawing comics about paintball and having paintball T-shirts made. How much more "full time" can I get?

Quote:
I'm still not going to have you make a 50pistol or redo the cylinder heads of my car.
-Why not? I own my own valve grinders (yes, plural) and have access to a Winona Van Norman surfacer that I helped refurbish. I'm in the middle of building a mild 455 for my '72 Cutlass as we speak, and I just started tearing down the THM 2004R I'll be putting behind it- old muscle with a modern overdrive automatic. After that, I finish up the EFI intake manifold I started building a few years back...

Quote:
What I'd like is a stroker with a front top load like the sydarm.
The LPR will go in front of the triggerguard, under a side dropout for the 12gram.
-No problem. Drop me a line at doc(at)docsmachine.com with all the specifics and we can go from there. What style grip frame you'd like, what sort of finish or plating, options like sight rails and barrel porting, etc. Rough ballpark figure, you're looking at $600 to start with, so you can send the marker, any pneumatics components you'd like used, and a down payment to that same address I listed earlier.

Doc.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:21 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
You might want to check you meds. Or up the voltage, maybe. If you look at one of the original included-with-every-Automag VHS videos, originally recorded in 1990 or so, they demo a prototype Sydarm at the end. The gun was officially available for sale in 1991 or so- when the very concept of a semiauto that didn't require stripper clips was literally only a couple of years old.
Correct; I played my first semi-auto game when I was a kid with a Sydarm (LE Training Version) in what must have been 1992 or so - that's what inspired me to buy an Automag. As I recall, they re-released the Sydarm in the early 2000s with a different frame and a few minor tweaks, but the original was made very early on.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:45 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think you make major errors in logic here.

You note the two successful pistols that were well received (Tiberius and Tippman) while neglecting to consider the dozens? of failed pistols or those that were not well received. Maybe you can count the 3357 as a possible "success" and add one more there. This is a card stacking argument.

You neglect to consider what has been, to this point, the failure of .50. Now this *MIGHT* change if more fields decide to pick them up.

I also think you overestimate the market for a new pistol - especially one that takes different paint. When I used to own Sydarms I played a handful of games with them and was thankful to just be able to grab paint from my bag - ditto that when I owned Tiberius pistols. Very few players are dedicated "pistol only" players.

I think TK knew what he was doing with the E-mag. I simply think he did not correctly estimate market directions and market forces. Combine that with a seeming inability to market to that market and AGD had its issues regardless of the product line.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:24 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I thought the "failure" of the EMag was more due to patent issues than anything else?

Also have to admit I really have no interest in pistol play, so not something I would consider. Why the need for a .50 cal pistol? Why not just build on the .43 CRap4 platforms?
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:06 AM   #59 (permalink)
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The E-mag was waning (heavily) in popularity before the lawsuits and threats of such. It may have stopped R+D on the next one but it was not "all-that" before this. I was using an E-mag at PSP before the lawsuits IIRC and it was one of VERY few there. You have to remember that TK's business model from the beginning was based on an expanding market. Rather than competing for WGP's slice of the pie you just made the entire pie bigger so that everyone's slice was a bit bigger. I am not sure that he was prepared to continue in a marketplace that had ceased expansion (and was contracting).
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

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Old 05-23-2013, 10:19 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
Again allow me to doubly redundantly reiterate, CCM can take a flyer on the SR-1, leading me to believe that a company somewhere could take a flyer on a 50pistol.
I think that they will and we'll know then, so there's no need for us to flagellate the expired equine in endless conjecture.
I retain my opinion that it would be immediately successful, but I understand why you disagree. Time will tell.

Rob
I'd just like to point out that:

1. It's still .68 cal and FS.

2. It's a simplified bolt action. It doesn't have nearly the amount of mechanics needed for what you want in a pistol (no offense Bill, I love your guns).

3. You mentioned earlier about CCM having 4-5 people. I believe the whole shop is something like 7 people, from what Mel has told me. Not that this really has anything to do with the argument..just wanted to let you know.

4. It's still .68 cal.

5. Bill did it originally as a personal project for himself, and then did a small additional run. Thus keeping the price down since the R&D was primarily done for himself at first.

6. You complain about the marketing stats that Doc has presented to you. I have yet to see any marketing stats from you as far as how successful .50 cal will be. I am leaving my mind wide open. Please convince me.
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