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Old 05-23-2013, 01:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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UPDATED 5/31/13! eBay Problems UPDATED 5/31/13!

Below is the original stuff, everything in between the stars is new and just happened today.

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So I got the gun back from the guy today in the mail. His reason for returning it was because it did not work. I just aired it up and it shoots perfectly and just the way it shot before I sent it to him.

EBay is now telling me I have to send him back the full amount of the purchase including shipping. Since his basis for returning the gun is invalid (i.e. he said it was broken when it clearly isn't) what can I do to keep my money or at least keep my original money from shipping so I'm not out any money?
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I've seen a few threads in the past about similar problems with eBay that I've had over the last week or so, and I'm looking to get some help on what to do with the situation I'm in.

I posted an Ego 07 for sale on eBay on 5/12/13. I posted it at a fixed price with a Best Offer option. Within about half an hour of posting the item I got a Best Offer message. I had the gun posted at $350 with $25 for shipping within the US. The buyer offered me $300. I responded saying that I just posted the ad and wanted to wait to see if I got any other offers first before taking the first one that came to me. He then sent a little higher offer ($325 or $335 I cannot remember), and I didn't accept or decline it because I knew I had two days to respond to an offer. Maybe half an hour after that he caved and just bought the gun at my asking price and he paid instantly with PayPal. I then printed a shipping label and sent out the gun the next day. I used a Priority Medium Flat Rate box and also required signature confirmation and paid for insurance on the item of $375.

Here is where the story turns sour...

BLUE are my messages, RED are his messages.

The gun was delivered on 5/15/13 and I figured all was well because it was delivered successfully and the buyer signed for the package.

But then the next day (5/16/13) he opened a case (with just me, not with eBay...yet...) saying that the "item doesn't match the description". His reasoning was that the board came without a screen like the stock Ego has. In my description for the gun I wrote "The gun comes with an aftermarket Seventh Element board and is stock otherwise." If he would have read the description he would see that the gun comes with another board and not the stock one as he assumed it would. He sent more messages saying he didn't understand how to board worked, so I then proceeded to nicely explain to him how the board worked and told him there is a manual online to help him learn how to use it and what it can do. He then said he got it all to work fine.

So a few days later (5/19/13) after not hearing back from him I replied to the case and asked if he could please close it so I could get access to my money. He then responded saying "Well i went to play with it for the first time and the thing just lobs the balls like 20 ft.the pros out there said something is wrong inside." I knew this was a lie as I had shot the gun the day before in my backyard with a friend who hadn't ever shot a paintball gun before and wanted to try it. The gun worked perfectly and was ball on ball and had no problems whatsoever. He then sent another message "Ill close the case but it wont be pretty feedback.youshould have tested it before selling it." I replied with "I did test it before selling it. I have a shooting video of the gun to show it works fine. And just don't leave any feedback if it isn't going to be good since I didn't do anything wrong. Thank you." He then replied with "I went to use it,it had to be reprogramed,the bolt wasnt set in right,and it shoots the balls so weak.bad buy, bad buisness." The next message I sent said "All of those things were not wrong with the gun. The board was at 100% stock settings so it did not need to be reprogrammed, the bolt was in correctly since I had just shot it in a video earlier that day, and the gun shoot at the 280 fps +/- 4 the week before. I can send you the video where it is shooting perfectly fine just hours before I packaged it up and sent it to you."

Knowing that I had proof the gun was working before I sent it, he stopped responding because he knew he broke the gun and wasn't going to get any money back. On the 19th, 20th, and 22nd I sent him polite messages asking for him to close the case so I could receive my money that was on hold. He then escalated the case to be reviewed by eBay on 5/22/13. A few hours later eBay made a decision and sided with him without even consulting me asking for my side of the story (which seems illegal since you cannot just be sentenced to jail without giving your own testimony or having a trial).

I then filed a complaint/reported the buyer for abusing the eBay Buyer Protection Program and in my message to eBay I explained the situation saying that the buyer claimed the gun did not work when it clearly does, and even went as far as to tell eBay that I would provide them with video evidence of the gun working before he claimed it was broken. They have not replied back to me and I doubt they ever will.

I now have to give the buyer a full refund after he ships the gun back to me.

Since I am afraid the gun will be in worse condition, missing parts, not working/broken when I receive it back from him, I do not want to give a refund on such a high value item.

I have a few questions I'm sure you guys could answer and help give me advice on what to do so I can keep my money since I am right in this situation.

1. Can a buyer return an item and get a refund just because they do not like the item and have buyer's remorse?
I ask this because I think he didn't read the description and doesn't like the board it comes with, and is lying so he can return it and get his money back.
2. If the gun is broken, missing parts, swap parts, damaged, scratched, or anything less than what I sent to him, can I refuse to refund him his money because the item is not the same as what I sent in the first place?
3. Does eBay automatically refund money when the package is delivered based on the tracking number, or do I get to refund the money after I inspect the returned item?
4. If I am the one in charge of refunding the money, what happens if I do not ever refund the money since the gun is broken (according to him) and I shouldn't have to refund a full amount for a broken item that I cannot resell.
5. If I say in my description "no returns and all sales are final" does that mean anything or just empty words?
6. He left me positive feedback and yet is still wanting a return and refund, how does eBay even allow that? If he leaves good feedback then what would give him cause to want to return it other than he has buyer's remorse and regrets his purchase, which is not a legitimate reason to ask for a return and refund.

So MCB, what do you suggest I do?

And sorry for the massive walls of text, I just wanted to give you all as much information as I could.

Thank you all.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MAD
What's your return policy on your Ebay auction? Either way, I'd just do the return but do ALL communication through ebay messaging so there is a formal record.
This was Mad's advice at the beginning of the last "OMG E-bay sux" thread Sooooo I sold my Empire sniper on Ebay.... with a situation in some ways similiar to yours. The recap: although we all believe the buyer is screwing with you and E-bay is not going to decide this fairly you save yourself a tremendous amount of frustration by simply taking it back. You will not win a dispute.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Last time I had to return a broken eBay purchase, the money was returned based on the tracking number.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks for the responses so far. If the gun is not broken at all and he just returned it because he didn't like it I won't try that hard to pursue it, but if the gun is broken, missing pieces, or I'm getting scammed, I'm going to make this end the right way in my favor like it should.

If the second case is true, would filling a police report be useful and help me get my money back? Since it's over $250 dollars I could do it and they would actually fill it out and do something about it, right?
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Just never sell paintball equipment on eBay. You don't get to filter out the problem buyers like you do on forums/CL, and the entire setup is designed to screw sellers over.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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ben...


thats BRUTAL

idk what to say other than to actually CALL paypal/ebay and explain whats up.

I've worked on that gun, i know it works, use me as a local gun tech reference.


i will never sell anything on ebay, ever again. i just wont.
but i still buy stuff all the time because i know it is a buyers site, not a sellers site
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by super_stanchy View Post
ben...


thats BRUTAL

idk what to say other than to actually CALL paypal/ebay and explain whats up.

I've worked on that gun, i know it works, use me as a local gun tech reference.


i will never sell anything on ebay, ever again. i just wont.
but i still buy stuff all the time because i know it is a buyers site, not a sellers site
After this experience I probably won't sell anything again either, haha. I kept getting lowballs on the forums so I figured I'd try eBay. I guess low offers are better than getting scammed.

I was going to ask you if I could use you as a witness/person that can verify it worked, thanks for suggesting that.

He has shipped the gun and I have a tracking number, so I'll know more once I actually get the gun back. I'm hoping more than anything he just didn't like the gun and it works fine, then I'll be able to resell it fine.

All I can do now is wait and see the condition of what I get back.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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. A few hours later eBay made a decision and sided with him without even consulting me asking for my side of the story (which seems illegal since you cannot just be sentenced to jail without giving your own testimony or having a trial).
Its not illegal for the record. What you are dealing with is a civil issue (not criminal, not jail). More to the point you very likely entered into an arbitration agreement with e-bay that bound you to their decision in cases like this.

I'm telling you after watching the hassle that RangerJim went through that Mad's advice was good advise. Do I think it is right that people do things like this? Nope. However your time and frustration are worth more than the value of this transaction.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Smart move. There are cases you can win but this isn't one. YES, ebay has clear rules against returning items due to buyers remorse. They sided with the buyer because the conversation shows it didn't work as expected. Your video and the item details don't help your case, they actually re-inforce his. You describe it and clearly show it working properly. Buyer receives it, can't get it to work as shown and adds those notes to the case. Who knows, maybe it actually didn't. Not saying it was your fault but something could have even come loose in shipping. Maybe he programmed the board wrong.

Ebay mediation is NOT a court system. There's no burden of proof needed. You as a seller are treated like a store with a returns policy. Even with a "no returns" policy you've agreed to the buyer protection policy and WILL be taking a return in these types of cases.

All the hate against ebay still makes me giggle. Don't want to sell there? Fine... more exposure for me and the others who sell there on a regular basis. Ebay is NOT the evil, it's the dumbass buyers that cause the problems.

Take this into account... what if it was a forum sale and the same thing happened? You'd be dealing directly with paypal who has the same buyer protection policy but would do even less "he said / she said" type stuff (they're not going to get involved or even read forum posts). Even if paypal were to side with the seller, if the buyer rolled it onto a credit card when they complain to their credit card company they WILL be getting their money back and there's a higher possibility of you never seeing the gun again at all.

Are you going to find less dumbass buyers and have less problematic transactions on MCB vs. ebay/pbn/other sites? Yes. Are you going to easily sell an ego 7 for $375 on here? Probably not... isn't that why it was on Ebay?

I personally take the ebay "risk" to guarantee the sale and a higher dollar. My percentage of bad transactions is very low so the risk / reward has paid off very well for me. So there's been 3-4 "ebay sucks" threads in the last few months. Wonder how many successful sales have happened? I'm guessing thousands.

Final note... if you're going to sell paintball stuff ANYWHERE, follow the model of successful companies. There's a reason CCM and Ninja have such good reputations. They don't argue, they simply make it right no matter what type of dumbass they're dealing with (and I'm sure they have had quite a few). So in these situations ask yourself.... WWCCMD ?
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Last edited by MaD; 05-23-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hey look. Another 'problem with ebay' case.

But yeah..basically MaDs got it right. If stuff like this happens, it's near impossible to win even if you did nothing wrong. It sucks, and is the reason I no longer sell on that site. I may not make as much on a gun selling on here, but at least I know my chances of running into dudes like this are slim to none.

When you do get the gun back, be sure to document everything. Just in the sheer chance that something did get changed around or something.
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