100% Legal Silencers?

Titus · 10-26-2007, 12:48 PM

PAINTBALL SCILENCERS - Special Ops Forum

Saw this post and wanted to know what all of you thought about it.

WilD · 10-26-2007, 12:57 PM

Legal suggests law, and law hardly matters in this case.

idkfa · 10-26-2007, 12:57 PM

His misspelling has me entirely convinced he knows that he is doing.

His statement: "TRUST ME PEOPLE I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING HERE!!!" reminds me of this rather humorous picture:

hank_k · 10-26-2007, 01:02 PM

Caught the thread this morning, his biggest toehold, assuming his design is anything like I'm imaging, is a play on how big the "canals" are. If it's just a big tube with no internal baffles, then he's still using canals to route sound, it just happens to be one single large one. Otherwise, he's either got hose coming from all the porting holes being directed backwards (which, incidentally, was the subject of another thread) or he's just built a muzzle break.

Either way, he's not getting $95CAD from me

Blackhawk1 · 10-26-2007, 01:13 PM

Ok... let me give you some background on me first. My father for years owned a gun store which sold Class 3 firearms, etc. Class 3 is what full-auto, short barrel rifles, silencers, etc. falls under what is called the National Firearms Act (NFA). At the store I was responsible for keeping up with the paperwork and so on. To this day I still have Class 3 items (a few short barreled rifles and suppressors- sold my MP-5 years ago and regret it mightily).

The ATF- years ago- made a ruling on paintball silencers. In fact, they continue to receive so many queries that this exact topic is located within the FAQ area of the ATF site. Here is a copy/paste of the official ATF ruling:

>>>>
(M30) Are Paintball and/or Airgun Sound Suppressers NFA firearms? [Back]

The terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax. See Questions M15 and 16 for application details.
<<<<

As such it does not matter HOW the silencer soaks up the sound- if it causes even a partial diminishing of sound it is legally a silencer. As such this yahoo will need a SOT 2 license to manufacture this thing. There is nothing in NFA regs that state how a suppressor must be built- you do not need baffles to qualify as NFA restricted. It simply has to suppress sound coming off a firearm- I dont know where rattler got the "small enclosed canals" statement as that is not the NFA definition of a suppressor.

Another legal aspect he has not considered is if he makes a can and it can readily converted into a firearms suppressor then it is still a silencer. Again, years ago with the PVC suppressors it was argued that the PVC stuffed with foam could not suppress a firearm and it could not. BUT taking the foam out and stuffing it with another material did turn it into a true suppressor. As the paintball PVC can was designed to fit around a barrel and suppress expanding gases plus had the potential to be turned into a true suppressor they were deemed illegal.

Now- if Rattler were to send one of these designed barrels to ATF for testing and he received a letter clearing his concept as exempt from NFA regulations then he has a winner. However, if it does not get exempted then he as a maker and anyone who owns these would be facing 10 years/ $250,000 PER COUNT of illegal manufacture and/or ownership.

No one yet has been able to come up with a paintball suppressor that has been exempted by the BATF.

HP_Lovecraft · 10-26-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk1

No one yet has been able to come up with a paintball suppressor that has been exempted by the BATF.

According to the ATF.GOV website, they tested designs that are FIXED to the gun, and those are 100% legal and exempted.

The reason that you do not see them used in paintball is the fact that aftermarket barrels are big business, despite the fact that a $150 barrel is no better then a $20 barrel.

Selling a gun with a fixed barrel would render that market useless.

But for the discussion, it would be legal to take a fixed barrel palmer, or old phantom, and port/groove the barrel, wrap in green scrubbies, and covered with an appropriate shell.

nick

Azzy · 10-26-2007, 01:41 PM

Unless you then take that unibody phantom and put it on a barrel.

Teh ATF never can seem to agree with itself, and goes to lengths to prove anyone in the wrong, even if they are not.

The solution... stop worrying about paintball silencers! They arent all that much quieter, and a good ported barrel will do about the same.

Blackhawk1 · 10-26-2007, 01:43 PM

Rattler is not talking about a fixed system.

However, even "fixed" systems would be illegal if one could saw off the suppressed portion, keeping the suppressor intact, and still have it viable as a suppressor. If it could still be readily attached to a true firearm BATF will not exempt it. To be exempt the suppressor would have to be destroyed in the attempt to remove it from a fixed system.

Even in the real gun world "fixed suppressors" are so integrally designed into the weapon that there is no viable way to dismantle it without destroying the suppressor (i.e. MP-5SD or any of a number of manufacturers that make fully suppressed uppers/barrel systems). Typically if one were to own a Class 3 firearm and suppressor one would have to pay the $200 transfer tax for each. The MP-5SD, Kitty Kat integrally suppressed upper, and so on only require a single $200 tax as the suppressor cannot be seperated without destroying them.

Unfortunately if one were to suppress a "fixed barrel" phantom on could simply saw off the suppressor and with that big 68 cal bore have more then enough room to place an inner sleeve and mount it to a real firearm. I have had extensive conversations with ATF over this and their FAQ stands: There are currently no exempted paintball silencers- fixed or not.

Blackhawk1 · 10-26-2007, 01:45 PM

I agree with you Azzy- there are more then enough mock silencers out there if one wants "the look".

Or go use a nice ported pump... that's about as quiet as it gets.

Schmitti · 10-26-2007, 01:48 PM

Not to stear away from the issue at hand... But I just noticed that Private Butterball (above) has a push dagger on his web gear... looks like one from Cold Steel.... what the hell do you need a push dagger for in Airsoft?

Anyways... was just trying to think of paintball guns that you could integrate the silencer and body.. and still prevent the use of the supressor on a firearm... I can't think of any.

E

10-26-2007, 12:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
WilD the MilD MOD Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Motor City	Legal suggests law, and law hardly matters in this case. __________________ PGPOG #79 POG #1055 My Feedback

10-26-2007, 12:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
idkfa Loose Cannon Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada	His misspelling has me entirely convinced he knows that he is doing. His statement: "TRUST ME PEOPLE I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING HERE!!!" reminds me of this rather humorous picture: __________________ MCB Feedback The PhOG Feedback eBay Feedback

10-26-2007, 01:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Blackhawk1 Rec Poster Join Date: Oct 2007	Ok... let me give you some background on me first. My father for years owned a gun store which sold Class 3 firearms, etc. Class 3 is what full-auto, short barrel rifles, silencers, etc. falls under what is called the National Firearms Act (NFA). At the store I was responsible for keeping up with the paperwork and so on. To this day I still have Class 3 items (a few short barreled rifles and suppressors- sold my MP-5 years ago and regret it mightily). The ATF- years ago- made a ruling on paintball silencers. In fact, they continue to receive so many queries that this exact topic is located within the FAQ area of the ATF site. Here is a copy/paste of the official ATF ruling: >>>> (M30) Are Paintball and/or Airgun Sound Suppressers NFA firearms? [Back] The terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax. See Questions M15 and 16 for application details. <<<< As such it does not matter HOW the silencer soaks up the sound- if it causes even a partial diminishing of sound it is legally a silencer. As such this yahoo will need a SOT 2 license to manufacture this thing. There is nothing in NFA regs that state how a suppressor must be built- you do not need baffles to qualify as NFA restricted. It simply has to suppress sound coming off a firearm- I dont know where rattler got the "small enclosed canals" statement as that is not the NFA definition of a suppressor. Another legal aspect he has not considered is if he makes a can and it can readily converted into a firearms suppressor then it is still a silencer. Again, years ago with the PVC suppressors it was argued that the PVC stuffed with foam could not suppress a firearm and it could not. BUT taking the foam out and stuffing it with another material did turn it into a true suppressor. As the paintball PVC can was designed to fit around a barrel and suppress expanding gases plus had the potential to be turned into a true suppressor they were deemed illegal. Now- if Rattler were to send one of these designed barrels to ATF for testing and he received a letter clearing his concept as exempt from NFA regulations then he has a winner. However, if it does not get exempted then he as a maker and anyone who owns these would be facing 10 years/ $250,000 PER COUNT of illegal manufacture and/or ownership. No one yet has been able to come up with a paintball suppressor that has been exempted by the BATF. Last edited by Blackhawk1; 10-26-2007 at 01:17 PM..

10-26-2007, 01:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
Azzy Mod-O-Rator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Finleyville, PA	Unless you then take that unibody phantom and put it on a barrel. Teh ATF never can seem to agree with itself, and goes to lengths to prove anyone in the wrong, even if they are not. The solution... stop worrying about paintball silencers! They arent all that much quieter, and a good ported barrel will do about the same. __________________ Bryan "Azzy" Spiegel Riverside Renegade Paintball / C.C. S.V.S. Plankowner - LPPC#6 "It is my right to be uncommon—if I can. I seek opportunity—not security. I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me. I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed. I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia. I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never cower before any master nor bend to any threat. It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act for myself, enjoy the benefit of my creations and to face the world boldly and say, “This I have done.” - Dean Alfange

10-26-2007, 01:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Schmitti Red=Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Schen. NY	Not to stear away from the issue at hand... But I just noticed that Private Butterball (above) has a push dagger on his web gear... looks like one from Cold Steel.... what the hell do you need a push dagger for in Airsoft? Anyways... was just trying to think of paintball guns that you could integrate the silencer and body.. and still prevent the use of the supressor on a firearm... I can't think of any. E __________________ Gone fishing

10-26-2007, 01:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
hank_k For gits and shiggles Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. John's, NL	Caught the thread this morning, his biggest toehold, assuming his design is anything like I'm imaging, is a play on how big the "canals" are. If it's just a big tube with no internal baffles, then he's still using canals to route sound, it just happens to be one single large one. Otherwise, he's either got hose coming from all the porting holes being directed backwards (which, incidentally, was the subject of another thread) or he's just built a muzzle break. Either way, he's not getting $95CAD from me

10-26-2007, 01:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
Blackhawk1 Rec Poster Join Date: Oct 2007	Rattler is not talking about a fixed system. However, even "fixed" systems would be illegal if one could saw off the suppressed portion, keeping the suppressor intact, and still have it viable as a suppressor. If it could still be readily attached to a true firearm BATF will not exempt it. To be exempt the suppressor would have to be destroyed in the attempt to remove it from a fixed system. Even in the real gun world "fixed suppressors" are so integrally designed into the weapon that there is no viable way to dismantle it without destroying the suppressor (i.e. MP-5SD or any of a number of manufacturers that make fully suppressed uppers/barrel systems). Typically if one were to own a Class 3 firearm and suppressor one would have to pay the $200 transfer tax for each. The MP-5SD, Kitty Kat integrally suppressed upper, and so on only require a single $200 tax as the suppressor cannot be seperated without destroying them. Unfortunately if one were to suppress a "fixed barrel" phantom on could simply saw off the suppressor and with that big 68 cal bore have more then enough room to place an inner sleeve and mount it to a real firearm. I have had extensive conversations with ATF over this and their FAQ stands: There are currently no exempted paintball silencers- fixed or not.

10-26-2007, 01:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
Blackhawk1 Rec Poster Join Date: Oct 2007	I agree with you Azzy- there are more then enough mock silencers out there if one wants "the look". Or go use a nice ported pump... that's about as quiet as it gets.

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