Paintball

[d4rksabre]

Originally Posted by Crash

True!

very true! but how often does it actually happen like that? I've stealthed people before, it usually doesn't go over too well

[Crash]

Well to get this back on track I would like to see more comments on things that players see that they think ref's could do better. Here are a few of my pet peeves that I have seen. It isn't all inclusive and are general comments to cover more ground.......
Giving away positions.
Picking daisies(think little league left fielders).
Being biased.
Not following the head ref's instructions.

Please add......

[CrazyBoy78]

Originally Posted by d4rksabre

very true! but how often does it actually happen like that? I've stealthed people before, it usually doesn't go over too well

You just have to slowly poke the end of your barrel dead centre in their backs and quietly tell them that they're out and that you'd really appreciate it if they'd walk off quietly. Never had a problem that way. Usually, those guys are so focused on something else, just hearing someone say that to them makes them comply.

I think that refs should just let play happen when it comes to this kinda stuff. There's no rule saying a player can't be on the opposing team's turf. They should just call what happens in a case like this.

[thkyle]

In the scenarios that I play in, it is against the rules to make any kind of action that would associate you as being out in order to sneak into the other teams camp. That would include barrel socks or raising your gun. That's the same as saying "I'm out." That's considered cheating. There are no dead men walking on our fields.

However, if you want to try to just meander through the field toward the enemies CP, no gun in the air, no barrel bag on..........good luck! If you can make it without getting shot, you've just outwitted the other team. That's considered skill where I play!

Something I do see that I feel is wrong and a should be made clearer in the rules at orientation and enforced by the referees is....

I often see players that will get hit, call themselves out, put on a barrel bag, shoulder their gun, and then takes a long detour through enemy lines, checking out all their defences on their way back to reinsertion. That's what I call a "dead man spying," and I also think it's cheating, but hardly ever do I see a ref do anything about it. If a dead man can't talk, well he also can't see! If he can't see, he can't go back, reinsert, and then inform everyone of least defended flank to attack!!! That is wrong.

But getting back on topic............Hey, anyone that plays scenario game knows to watch the refs! Best indication of something happening is "movement of the yellow shirts!" And if they're carrying something!!! It's "Switch over to SC.5 and trail those dudes, shout back when you see what's up!" That just good paintball.......

I feel the burden of discretion falls on the refs. They are responsible to enforce the rules and at the same time be discreet. I've seen teams of refs use diversion tactics to place props on the field, or move special role players into position. They have to, because I guarantee you that any seasoned scenario player is watching the yellow shirts just as much as they are enemy troop movements. Quite often, they are one in the same.

It's part of the game.

[Crash]

"I often see players that will get hit, call themselves out, put on a barrel bag, shoulder their gun, and then takes a long detour through enemy lines, checking out all their defences on their way back to reinsertion. That's what I call a "dead man spying," and I also think it's cheating, but hardly ever do I see a ref do anything about it. If a dead man can't talk, well he also can't see! If he can't see, he can't go back, reinsert, and then inform everyone of least defended flank to attack!!! That is wrong."

I have not seen much of this but it is very much worth mentioning!

[SSniper13]

Great post thkyle,

Also a pet peeve of mine, that recon by elimination method. I watched almost an entire unit use it once at a larger scenario. Rather than try to fight through to an imperilled base, they simply charged down the road towards it, and then kept walking after they got shot -to go to the dead zone that re-inserted in the base. They also very conveniently walked through the entire attacking force and then when reinsertion hit, the base knew where the pushes were coming, and where they needed to reinforce. Very smart, but questionable.

One of my biggest gripes at scenarios is tank rules -or lack of knowledge thereof by the refs and players. At a game this fall, they didn't even have a ref assigned to the only tank at the game. Our AT guys would shoot it and then have to spend 5 minutes getting the ref's attention and getting the tank called out. In the meantime, the tank (who I'm sure couldn't feel a single hit or notice the different colored splat) procedes to eliminate 10-15 of our players and break open an entire flank. If that happened once, fine, but I've seen it several times. To the staff's credit, they fixed that problem by the end of the day, but it had already cost our team a number of points. Without (and sometimes even with) the refs, the players need to actually obey the non-bunker rule about tanks. It's frustrating to see 10 players walking along beside or crouched behind an "eliminated" tank when there is supposed to be a dead air zone around them.

All in all, however, I've been very pleased with the quality of reffing at most events I've been to lately. The D-Day field and staff at all of their games always do a top-notch job, and the smaller events at other fields have by and large gone well. I think it's as much about who you play these games with as the ref staff in particular. Just as in all big woodsball games, it is the players themselves who ultimately must take responsibility for honest and fair play, and I've seen more players than refs at scenarios call out their teammates on bad behavior and effect change in the attitudes of peers. I won't go back to a field where the regulars don't contribute as much or more to the safety of the game as the staff members do.

SSniper13

[Mstrtal]

A lot of times the side I have been on has instituted a "NO Dead Player Zone" We inform anyone walking up "dead" that dead players are NOT allowed within a set radius of the base on pain of being shot. We even inform the ref of this.

May not be any help to the rest of our positions but if we can keep them far enough from our base it can make the difference.

First time I saw this "No Dead Player Zone" was at the first Shatner game. Early in the game a dead guy walked threw Fort Courage on his way back to his insertion. His insertion was way the hell in gone to the left (as he was walking in) shortly after that we got steamrolled by the Borg.

After that anyone dead trying to approach to get a look in side was sternly told to go around. He wasn't to happy but I was more then happy to shoot him if he didn't vier off. He yelled at a ref about it and the ref just shrugged and said he "Should avoid live players"

To this day if I see an eliminated player walking toward our position, especially the base, I redirect them to the nearest tape line. Often its just a new player or a mistake as many scenario fields are huge and its easy to get turned around on. Every so often however its a player who is just trying to get an unethical edge and I am more then happy to shoot them if they do not comply. Have not received a ref punch yet.

[Traakon]

Nice thread guys and I am not sure it really got derailed with the "speedball vs. Scenario" bit. If a player doesn't understand the difference between the two issues, that in itself compromises the scenario.

As a Ref I like to hear what players see going right and wrong about how Ref's operate. I would like to think that becoming a Ref has made me a better player on many levels including taking that moment while calling a game to give thought to my words or actions before making a call. i.e. a quiet direction to a dead player on how I expect them to exit the field with out taking a scenic tour or inserting myself between a dead/surrendered player who is under the pounding of multiple attackers who aren't stopping. Getting hit comes with the job and more than one player has shown true appreciation for the act.

There is a reason why being a good scenario spy is difficult, just as in real life, everyone suspects and the smallest flaw turns you out and that flaw should be the players not the officials.

One of the things I see all the time and try not to do myself and caution other Ref's not to do is shift position to oversee the action in such a way to actually expose the best laid flank of one side or another. A sharp eyed player seeing a Ref backing out of a position where he is clearly not in the line of fire say, "He see's players moving and putting him in the line of fire. We got flankers coming." Sometimes you just have to let the action sweep around and past you even if you get hung out in the middle for a minute.

Thanks for a nice discussion guys, as a new guy to the forum, I like seeing I joined a mature one.

[Daze]

I don't think everyone is getting what a "spy" is in a scenario game. He isn't someone who is sneaking around behind enemy lines collecting barreltags, or anything of the sort. In every scenario game I've been to that has spys, it is a player that volunteers to be an official turncoat. He is publicly issued a players card on one team and privately issued a card for the other team. The general of the team for which the card was privately issued is told who his spys are before the game, and the two generally try to find unsuspicious ways to set up communications and what the spy should try to do for the general.

This can lead to a completely different decision for refs. If I'm a spy for red and my blue teammates are trying to take a point and hold it for 30 minutes, I'll slide up to the ref when there is 2 minutes left on the timer, tell him I'm a spy, and I'm standing closest to the numbers, so Blue doesn't get the points. The ref has to decide how to handle this without giving away the fact that there was a spy there. Do you lie to the 10 other guys saying "how much time left, ref?" or "Are you calling those points in, or do we need a runner to take the mission card back?" or do you tell them there were no points awarded and come up with an excuse for it?

Being a red spy and one of blue's other roles (medic, engineer, demoman, special role, etc) can lead to interesting choices for a player and ref as well. I've seen a guy volunteer for a role as a spy, and a scientist. He "built" a nuclear missile that blew up on the pad when launched, killing the general, blowing the base, and taking about 20 new reinserters as well. The ref played it off for long enough for him to act confused and mad at being blown up, tell the general he was going to go get some air and food, slip off the field and to the other teams base. The general finally got it out of the ref that sabatoge was involved, but by the time he put 2 and 2 together, the player was reinserting at the red cp, having a good laugh with the general there.

[PJ]

Slightly associated with this is a story I heard about a guy at our former scenario field. He wasn't a spy per se, but during the night play he walked around with what looked like a camcorder in his hand. When asked, he replied he was just taking movies. Now, mind you, the field had all photographers (even the players who wanted some pictures) wear ref vests so they wouldn't get lit up. He wasn't wearing one and the other team shrugged and said OK. He actually had a night-vision monocle and was doing recon. No one caught on, from what I was told.