Paintball

[thumper]

request for comment and contribution
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Scenario Reffing : Spies : how to deal with them
By Steers - Team Section8
1.21.2007

One of the greatest tragedies in scenario paintball might be when a player has created a masterpiece in which he/she is walking among the enemy and planning to disrupt and/or eliminate important targets and the referee rats them out.

Spies are a unique aspect of the game and in many ways helps the referees understand just what one player is capable of doing. Being a spy doesn’t necessarily mean that you are allowed to wear enemy tape and hold an enemy card. In the game, especially night, one player can wreak havoc with mission teams and base security and so much depends on the cooperation and trust with refs.

Things to remember at a scenario with or without spies:

1. As the ref, you have been placed higher than the player, that is, to judge and monitor. You are expected to be friendly but mainly to be professional. This entails you not allowing any player to hear your radio chatter or giving them hints that would lead to points being taken or given on any one side. Have you ever heard of a judge telling a contestant how to win? Of course not, that is cheating and so is this.

2. At times, it is necessary for you to act quickly. When the player approaches a ref and informs him of his/her intentions, the ref must take great care in what he/she does at that point. Talking on radios risks a new ref from shooting his mouth off and not paying attention could cause the plan to fail. For example: when a player intends to barrel tag several players by slowly working up a line, as the ref, you must work quickly and diligently by removing dead players from the line. In most cases, the player will say something to compromise the player and the plan will fail.

3. Plain and simple, if you rat out a player because you are a base ref or referee working closely with any one side, you have cheated and cannot handle the responsibility that you have been given. I personally believe that points should be awarded in these instances. If the player is doing an effective job, then let him/her do it and later congratulate them for their work. If the enemy player is ignorant, then that is their down fall and you as the ref MUST let them learn the lesson. Unless they ask about the rules, you are not to instruct in the process of their demise.

Obviously, if you hear of a player getting ready to do something sneaky, be quiet about it and do not spread the word. The only thing that player needs is for you to act at the opportune moment and allow him/her to do what they came to do. In most cases, you are grim reaper and it is your job to silence players and get them out before the others know what it going on. In real life, if the spy was cutting throats one by one, could any of his victims scream out? No, so be sure to silence them.

[Mstrtal]

If a player comes up to you at night with a question or concern please do NOT shine your flashlight on them. Wether they are in or out becomes mote at this point. You shine a lite on them and you give their position away to every single player in line of site.

Personally I have seen a few players who just ask quietly for a ref to move over at night so as to not shoot them get lit up by opposing players when the ref shines a light on them.

[Mr. Furious]

So it's OK to be sneaky/deceptive and infiltrate the enemy to shoot them in the back in a scenario but a Dead Man's Walk is a cardinal sin on the speedball field? Seems to me to be 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

I'll never understand the double standards paintball players live with and often embrace.

Anyway..IMHO the ref's job is to pull eliminated players. Whether it be from friendly fire or a spy the player is eliminated just the same. Keeping it "quiet" seems to be helping the spy and thereby aiding the spy's team. A ref should do the same job the same way no matter what the circumstances or he could be accused of showing favoritism.

[going_home]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

So it's OK to be sneaky/deceptive and infiltrate the enemy to shoot them in the back in a scenario but a Dead Man's Walk is a cardinal sin on the speedball field? Seems to me to be 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

I'll never understand the double standards paintball players live with and often embrace.

Anyway..IMHO the ref's job is to pull eliminated players. Whether it be from friendly fire or a spy the player is eliminated just the same. Keeping it "quiet" seems to be helping the spy and thereby aiding the spy's team. A ref should do the same job the same way no matter what the circumstances or he could be accused of showing favoritism.

Speedball is a different animal than woodsball sir.
The dead men dont talk rule is cardinal in woodsball and the player talked by the dead man is automatically eliminated.
But the player does have the right to yell "hit" or "out" at the top of his lungs, once he is out.
The ref is just to make sure no dead men talk to live ones.

[Crash]

Thumper,
Excellent post on the subject. When reffing for Viper I always try to convey this very thing to my ref's.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by going_home

Speedball is a different animal than woodsball sir.
The dead men dont talk rule is cardinal in woodsball and the player talked by the dead man is automatically eliminated.
But the player does have the right to yell "hit" or "out" at the top of his lungs, once he is out.
The ref is just to make sure no dead men talk to live ones.

Dead men don't talk is cardinal for all paintball as far as I'm concerned.

But I couldn't disagree more about woodsball and speedball being different. A guy doing a dead man's walk is no more deceitful, sneaky or cheating than a spy infiltrating enemy held territory and yet one is scorned while the other is applauded. That's a double standard if I ever heard one and more evidence that woodsballers think their brand of paintball is more righteous than any other brand.

Paintball is paintball.

[d4rksabre]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

Dead men don't talk is cardinal for all paintball as far as I'm concerned.

But I couldn't disagree more about woodsball and speedball being different. A guy doing a dead man's walk is no more deceitful, sneaky or cheating than a spy infiltrating enemy held territory and yet one is scorned while the other is applauded. That's a double standard if I ever heard one and more evidence that woodsballers think their brand of paintball is more righteous than any other brand.

Paintball is paintball.

Do you have some issues with the spy role? Were you barrel tagged by a spy once or something and now have traumatic flashbacks to it while on the field?

How is it a double standard? Speedball can be sneaky too! If you come down the side of the field and some poor guy in the mid field doesn't see you, it's not like you want the ref to follow you around or yell to you while you're moving. You want the ref to make sure he doesn't alert the opposing player that you've made it to his side and are about to smoke him from behind.

Besides, I don't know where you're getting the deadman walk comparison to a spy role. Spies aren't dead man walking, they're active players in the game. Dead man walking is cheap in both versions of the game whether it's speedball or woodsball. But being sneaky is perfectly fine!

[Do Little]

Your confusing the two.

A dead man's walk is pretending to be out when your not. It's causes a lot of overshooting problems because everybody wants to shoot anybody that's out just to make sure.

The topic of this thread is pretending to be on the other team while not breaking any rules, which is perfectly acceptable in any form of paintball.

[Crash]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

So it's OK to be sneaky/deceptive and infiltrate the enemy to shoot them in the back in a scenario but a Dead Man's Walk is a cardinal sin on the speedball field? Seems to me to be 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

I'll never understand the double standards paintball players live with and often embrace.

Two different games..as such different rules.

Anyway..IMHO the ref's job is to pull eliminated players. Whether it be from friendly fire or a spy the player is eliminated just the same. Keeping it "quiet" seems to be helping the spy and thereby aiding the spy's team. A ref should do the same job the same way no matter what the circumstances or he could be accused of showing favoritism.

True it is the ref's job to pull eliminated players but in Scenario Games a big part of our time is devoted to player safety also. As far as "helping" on the field we are as I often tell other ref's "don't exist" and "are not there". Our place isn't to interfere with the game but to make sure that other people do as they are supposed to.

"But the player does have the right to yell "hit" or "out" at the top of his lungs, once he is out."

If your shot or eliminated by a non silent means this is true but with "knife rules" or with "barrel tags" that isn't the case.
It is like if someone slit your throat would you be able to shout out "hey someone just slit my throat"?? The basic rule is dead men don't talk once your out keep your mouth shut! Also it is common courtesy if you get barrel tagged you quietly turn and walk away with out shouting "I'm out" the reason is some one just put a bunch of time effort into that move and if you were to shout out that would alert your team members to the fact they were present and most likely get them lit-up in the process.
Here is a quote from the Viper Rules on Barrel Tags.
Barrel-tagging: You may "barrel-tag" players and eliminate them without shooting. The barrel must be at least 8 inches long, and in plain sight (not hidden up your sleeve) and you must immediately say, "Barrel tag!" when you touch them with it. Barrel-tagged players are immediately eliminated and are to walk away quietly. Failure to do so will result in a judge punch. After you have exited the area you may declare that you are eliminated as you continue to your hospital or an exit. Barrel tagged players cannot be healed by medics. No barrel tags are allowed during the "Dinner Battle" or "Final Battle."

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by d4rksabre

Do you have some issues with the spy role? Were you barrel tagged by a spy once or something and now have traumatic flashbacks to it while on the field?

How is it a double standard? Speedball can be sneaky too! If you come down the side of the field and some poor guy in the mid field doesn't see you, it's not like you want the ref to follow you around or yell to you while you're moving. You want the ref to make sure he doesn't alert the opposing player that you've made it to his side and are about to smoke him from behind.

Besides, I don't know where you're getting the deadman walk comparison to a spy role. Spies aren't dead man walking, they're active players in the game. Dead man walking is cheap in both versions of the game whether it's speedball or woodsball. But being sneaky is perfectly fine!

OK....Just so I have this straight.....We're talking about a situation where a live player walks from his team's area of the field in plain sight if the other team to the other team's area of the field and then begins to eliminate players from behind.

That's the situation, right?

Explain to me how the kind of field you're playing on determines whether it's cheap or not?

There is no difference at all except for the perception of the people talking about it and that is why it's a double standard. I'm just saying: "Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line two....." because being sneaky by doing a dead man's walk is the same as being sneaky and being a spy walking into an enemy territory under the guise of belonging to the enemy team.

And, no, I've never been traumatized by anybody on the paintball field. If someone makes a great move and gets me I'm happy for them. I just hate double standards and prejudice so I try to bring it to light when I see it.