Paintball

[ceverhart]

Schmitti- You mention a micro switch on the trigger, an eblade use's an opitical switch to fire. How will this affect the trigger bounce as you only need to maker the trigger long enough to break a light beam, then reset itself?

[Azzy]

What about partial beam breaks? Does it count at 10% break? what about at 30% break?

Same as with mech switches.

[Schmitti]

you only need to maker the trigger long enough to break a light beam, then reset itself

There in you have your answer... in theory any physical bounce in the trigger (back and forward movement, either due to the force of the finger against the trigger from firing or from the gun firing) will break the beam... Now if you want to send me an eblade I will gladly test one for you.. otherwise you will have to go by my theory or wait for someone else to post.

Another thing to look into is how "wide" your beam is.... are the emmiter and "receiver" aligned perfectly.. is it a narrow focused light (micro led) or just an led that sits in the grip that emmits a wider beam that might reflect inside the grip..... A wider beam and tuning the "reciever" (For the life of me I can't remember the correct name for the resistor that operates on light) will prevent "fake" trigger pulls.

I'm now getting in above my head with regards to circuitry so I will quit while I'm ahead... but in theory if you are using a spot light instead of a penlight to set off the trigger, that extra light is going to prevent small movements of the trigger from breaking the beam (because the beam is HUGE and there will be some reflected light that the resistor receives).

Avery... check me on this....that make any sense to you?

E

[Christian Nelson]

There is still potential for noise in any electrical switch, regarldess of how it is activated, this is why I proposed the fully mechanical approach.

I deally, you would have an example of a couple of different types aof switches and at least one pneumatic system, and maybe even a really light sear mechanical trigger, and have the same person do thier best on all of them, and see how they stack up.

My suspicion is that the electronics, regardless of switch activation will have more shots per second, and that Manike will record more shots fired than called for by the person's fingers.

The pneutrigger wil be probably the most representative of the actuall ability of the fingers of the person, but may still had issues with mechanical bounce.

In the end the sear tripped mechanical will be the only truly reliable one shot one pull method.

[drg]

Originally Posted by raehl

Because if the trigger wasn't released past the firing point, it wasn't a pull?

If it wasn't released past the "firing point", it wouldn't fire. Now the firing point isn't necessarily a large movement, a full movement or any movement of the trigger at all, it is a set of criteria under which a trigger pull results in the gun being "told" to fire. You guys need to get past the minutiae of trigger mechanics and look at the bigger picture.

The only reliable definition of a trigger pull is a voluntary motion of the finger that produces a firing of the gun, in the absence of which the gun would not fire. It doesn't matter whether a single motion of the finger causes 1 switch impulse or 10, it doesn't matter whether the trigger moves a lot or a little, as long as the marker fires at least once in response to a voluntary finger motion, it is a trigger pull.

Now when judging legitimacy of those pulls, you need some means of detecting trigger inputs. The most easily available and observable tool for us to do that is a paintball marker firing at 1 shot per trigger pull. The side benefit is that the audio signature of a gun so firing can be measured to get trigger rate.

This does not require high speed photography to judge at trigger rates up to, potentially, 30 pulls/sec, if the video is synced properly with the pulls. Luckily, most trigger rates fall well below the 30/sec detection maximum and fall closer to the "Nyquist-ideal" 15/sec maximum.

The presence of audio data and the foreknowledge of the expected amplitude of the events greatly helps analysis of the "signal", and renders Nyquist rate, which is required to reconstruct completely unknown waveforms, less applicable.

In practical terms it means that what you see on the video I have provided is enough information to judge triggering rate. The shots clearly track the frequency of the finger motions as it ranges from 13-15/sec, there are never any shots in the absence of a finger motion.

Really think about it and look at the video. Do you see ANY point at which a shot sound is not in response to a clear finger motion? If so, please point out the timestamp.

[Custom Cowboy]

At exactlty 30 trigger pulls at 30fps, wouldn't your finger and the trigger appear to be perfectly still and at the EXACT same postions for an entire video? So I COULD take an audio of 30 sounds signatures in one second while I leave my hands perfectly still on a gun that never shoots and everything would line up.

On a side note(and to lighten the mood), I'm pretty sure my fingers can hit an astonishing 5-6 trigger pulls per second, but if they made the trigger guard area large enough to get my entire fist inside it, I'm sure I could move my partially closed-fisted hand back and forth at a rate of 70 strokes per second. Other areas of my anatomy will testify to this fact as I have been running "scientific" tests for the last 12 years or so.

[ceverhart]

I do not know what the filter (%beam broken)is for the optic switch to trigger/not trigger but it is consistent on each gun. I mean by this you set the trigger too short to fire and then back it off to be able to fire, the point of no fire is always the same. I do not know enough about optic switch vs micro switch to try anf argue either way. I would believe though that the optic is less prone to trigger bounce as the "micro switch" mod makes it easier to shoot faster.

I really think that 1 pull, 1 shot is valid regardless of how short the pull is, I think if you get more than 1 shot per pull it is bounce(mech,trigger, etc) I know I can shoot a eblade fast due to the really short pull, I use a full slick kit and green springs and the lpr just 1/4 turn past cycle. I do not get mechanical bounce with the current set up. I will concede bounce is possible with a opti trigger as there is a "spot" you can just hold the trigger and it fire, I just believe it is harder than with a micro switch gun. I can only get verifible(to me) bounce if my trigger finger is held perfectly still in the "spot"

[drg]

Originally Posted by Custom Cowboy

At exactlty 30 trigger pulls at 30fps, wouldn't your finger and the trigger appear to be perfectly still and at the EXACT same postions for an entire video? So I COULD take an audio of 30 sounds signatures in one second while I leave my hands perfectly still on a gun that never shoots and everything would line up.

No, they would alternate between index and middle from frame to frame, if it were perfectly synced. If you happened to sync it when both fingers were off the trigger you would get no verifiable trigger pulls.

By the way faked sound data is always a potential risk no matter what the video shows, so there is at least a baseline of trust required to even start doing analysis.

[Shane-O]

drg:

What about the fact that your fingers are not going at the same rate for the alloted time of video? So for accuracy, you need a higher frame rate video. And to verify if you actually made a trigger pull, you must slow do the video much slower to see for sure. You can sorta see whats happening with your trigger pulls, but that is not good enough to say without a doubt, whats happening. This is about being 100% clear, not "close enough". No one is really doubting your video or claims, but most will not accept them as fact, because your method isn't 100%. Dont take such offense though, if you believe that your video is clear enough for you, then thats fine, but dont expect everyone else to believe it. It isnt a personal attack on you, just other people that want more conclussive proof.

One the subject of bounce, I do know that eclipse e-blades were very bouncy unless you really tweaked them. And from goofing around with some and talking to a trusted (by me) airsmith, we determined that even when set for 1 pull/one shot, when shot quickly it would still bounce extra shots. Dont know if that was mechanical bounce or electrical, but it doesnt really matter. The older electro's like the Bushmaster or led angel had aggressive bounce filtering in the software. Once they bps wars started heating up a few software/chip designers found that and started modifying it to make the gun shoot faster, with the same triggering.

[drg]

delete double post