Paintball

[Gabe]

Try to beat my bps on this

Has anybody seen this thread? My little brother hit 14 with ONE finger simply by twitching out in his own freaky little way. It CAN be done. I don't know about any of you guys but my mouse is not bouncing, ramping, and has some pretty gnarly filters. Mice (or at least mine) has a very heavy click force compared to some guns I have shot. I've shot a stock spyder e-gun which had a lighter trigger force than this mouse.

15bps can be achieved in true semi auto with pretty hefty filters. I know, I've seen it done on guns that I can't even hit 10bps on.

Manike has shown some pretty hefty evidence as to why HE cannot fire over 13bps on an e-gun but that does not apply to everybody. It has to be remembered that all the evidence that Manike posted was done by himself. It was not testing a pool of people that claimed to be able to trigger a gun very quickly. Manike even admitted he could only trigger 13bps or so. His evidence only showed that many guns bounce (not ALL guns) when set up with marginal filters and certain geometry that made it easy to bounce.

In order for Manike's evidence to be relevant to drg's trigger fingers, those tests would have to be run on drg's gun and extremely slow motion video taken of drg's triggering technique.

As it stands, drg doesn't have the equipment or resources to furnish adequate evidence for all you nay sayers to be placated (and I don't see anyone volunteering to help him furnish that evidence) but at the same time there is really no proof that drg (or anyone for that matter) cannot trigger a true 15bps.

I've seen some pretty freakishly fast trigger fingers in my life and drg may just have those fingers. Based on the videos he has posted I am inclined to say that drg certainly is extremely fast on the trigger and he is triggering as fast or pretty close to what he claims to be able to do.

[Shane-O]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Try to beat my bps on this

Has anybody seen this thread? My little brother hit 14 with ONE finger simply by twitching out in his own freaky little way. It CAN be done. I don't know about any of you guys but my mouse is not bouncing, ramping, and has some pretty gnarly filters. Mice (or at least mine) has a very heavy click force compared to some guns I have shot. I've shot a stock spyder e-gun which had a lighter trigger force than this mouse.

Do you have any facts to back that up? Like how do you know how heavy of filtering your mouse has. How about when rapid clicking? When clicking rapidly, the filter may not be set to work that quick, not saying your wrong, but of you want me to believe it, provide some facts/proof. My wireless mouse will double click the computer with one click of the mouse itself, just by pressing too hard........

Originally Posted by Gabe

15bps can be achieved in true semi auto with pretty hefty filters. I know, I've seen it done on guns that I can't even hit 10bps on.

What is your proof of actual 15 bps? is ti the gun itself? If so the gun may not be right either, it needs to be verified by chrono or other means of measuring. I have seen many guns shoot perfectly legal with heavy filtering, and still have a bit of bounce.

Originally Posted by Gabe

Manike has shown some pretty hefty evidence as to why HE cannot fire over 13bps on an e-gun but that does not apply to everybody. It has to be remembered that all the evidence that Manike posted was done by himself. It was not testing a pool of people that claimed to be able to trigger a gun very quickly. Manike even admitted he could only trigger 13bps or so. His evidence only showed that many guns bounce (not ALL guns) when set up with marginal filters and certain geometry that made it easy to bounce.

In order for Manike's evidence to be relevant to drg's trigger fingers, those tests would have to be run on manike's gun and extremely slow motion video taken of drg's triggering technique.

As it stands, drg doesn't have the equipment or resources to furnish adequate evidence for all you nay sayers to be placated (and I don't see anyone volunteering to help him furnish that evidence) but at the same time there is really no proof that drg (or anyone for that matter) cannot trigger a true 15bps.

Correct, it cannot be proved either way about drg's video, drg wants you to believe his video is good enough, but it isnt for everybody. IIRC, no one has stated that they know (beyond a shadow of doubt) that a gun could not be fired 15bps without some help from the guns electronics or mechanical bounce. Some have stated that it was their opinion, and they may or may not be right, thats the point of a discussion, to learn the TRUTH if possible.




Shane-O

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Shane-O

Do you have any facts to back that up? Like how do you know how heavy of filtering your mouse has. How about when rapid clicking? When clicking rapidly, the filter may not be set to work that quick, not saying your wrong, but of you want me to believe it, provide some facts/proof. My wireless mouse will double click the computer with one click of the mouse itself, just by pressing too hard........

I don't have any proof except the numbers. I shot a maximum of 12bps on my mouse and my brother got 14 on his first try. Why is proof that my mouse is not bouncing so necessary to you and to the point that I'm trying to make?

Originally Posted by Shane-O

What is your proof of actual 15 bps? is ti the gun itself? If so the gun may not be right either, it needs to be verified by chrono or other means of measuring. I have seen many guns shoot perfectly legal with heavy filtering, and still have a bit of bounce.

Shane-O

Again, I shot slowly and the other guy was much faster. I don't have or need any proof that I shot slow or he shot "xx" bps. It's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

The point is that there are people out there that are simply freakishly fast on the trigger. You or I may not be able to fire as fast as drg claims he can fire but that doesn't mean that drg's gun has to be bouncing for him to be able to fire as fast as he claims.

[drg]

Originally Posted by Shane-O

AND there it is.....................

drg, your video cannot show things like that in enough detail, to see if your shooting the bps or if the gun is helping you. If you say your pulling 13bps without gun help, thats fine, but you cant expect everyone to believe you. Your taking it all too personal, lighten up.....................

It does indeed show that there is one shot per movement of the finger perfectly clearly. How the gun makes that happen is irrelevant. There is no need to look any closer. It just takes some thought. I expect people to think and come to logical conclusions, not jump on bandwagons for bad reasons.

[drg]

Originally Posted by Shane-O

IIRC, no one has stated that they know (beyond a shadow of doubt) that a gun could not be fired 15bps without some help from the guns electronics or mechanical bounce. Some have stated that it was their opinion, and they may or may not be right, thats the point of a discussion, to learn the TRUTH if possible.

People have gone a bit beyond that. They "may or may not be right" suggests people give evidence in either direction fair consideration. Most people commenting in this thread are already convinced 13+ true semi is impossible, including you.

[drg]

Still haven't seen anyone comment on this:
YouTube - AO BPS 07 Slowmo

What do you think of those?

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by drg

People have gone a bit beyond that. They "may or may not be right" suggests people give evidence in either direction fair consideration. Most people commenting in this thread are already convinced 13+ true semi is impossible, including you.

Now I wouldn't go that far, drg, without quotes to back it up.

[drg]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Now I wouldn't go that far, drg, without quotes to back it up.

Okay, I thought it would be self-evident.

Originally Posted by Shane-O

My thought has always been that a true semi electro cannot be triggered over 12-13 BPS. Not without some debounce settings, or without software, or RT type help. Original Angels, and Bushmasters didnt get over 10-11bps out of the box IMO. Everyone thought they were shooting 13bps because that what the specs said it could do. IT sounded like they were shooting 13bps, because we had not heard 13bps at that time. When you used a mag or cocker and shot 6-8 BPS, anything more than that sounded like a machine gun........

...

Manike

Thanks for putting the facts out there about this. I knew in my heart that it was true, but had no facts to base it on. Hopefully, the fact that you were on the design team for the Mini, should give the nay sayers some credibility to the facts.

Declaring his own belief proven by "facts".

Originally Posted by Robertsr

...AAAAANnd it's Simon for the win!

Thanks for the science sir! I'm sure there are plenty of people who will poo-poo your analysis in favor of believing that they have superhuman powers, but I for one am glad to hear some facts enter the discussion.

Declaring a "win" based on manike's "facts", essentially rejecting the claims.

Originally Posted by schmitti

Yes scientific data is much better than some of the "other" info we have seen posted

Keep up the most excellent work manike.

E

Suggesting that video of one type is "scientific data" while video of another type is "other" info. Both are indeed scientific data and furthermore are the same type of data. The video with sound is aruably more complete data.

Originally Posted by raehl

If you design guns, you must know what you're talking about, otherwise your guns wouldn't work.

If you don't design guns, you may or may not know.

But because you and Manike disagree, and Manike designs guns, and Manike thus must be right, and because only one of you can be right...

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader which person must therefore be mistaken.

Lord knows what kind of logic this is, but it does show a clear bias, although not specifically in regards to the 13 bps claim.

I'd say that shows biased thinking, wouldn't you? Thing is, manike has raised some interesting points but none of them are all that relevant to what we are doing here. At this point people are just using those points to naysay.

[flyweightnate]

Originally Posted by drg

Still haven't seen anyone comment on this:
YouTube - AO BPS 07 Slowmo

What do you think of those?

Can't see the fingers! His hand is in the way. Shoot facing the other direction, so we can see fingertips.

Really, I think 17+ is possible without aid. I hit 17 on my laptop "mouse" button, on the Ego trigger game, without using the spacebar or anything. My mouse button is a long throw, very soft feel instead of snappy like I like my triggers, and at a bad angle for my fingers to work it. Every time I play, I'll hit 17 for one second, and average 11-15 the rest of the 3 minutes or whatever I play. HP dv9000 laptop, if anyone wants to try and disprove that by talking about the mouse filters. Using the left-click button below the touchpad. What can I say, practice helps.

However, you (drg) are taking it very personally that people don't think your video is clear enough. It ISN'T. It shows that yeah, your fingers move fast, and generally correspond to shots, but there's so much aliasing of the trigger, backblock, and finger movement that it seems like a flipbook. I think you got it. But I think your video isn't sufficient PROOF you got it.

[drg]

Originally Posted by flyweightnate

Can't see the fingers! His hand is in the way. Shoot facing the other direction, so we can see fingertips.

Actually you can see the fingers in both videos. Not as clearly as from the opposite side but you can indeed see them.

Originally Posted by flyweightnate

However, you (drg) are taking it very personally that people don't think your video is clear enough. It ISN'T. It shows that yeah, your fingers move fast, and generally correspond to shots, but there's so much aliasing of the trigger, backblock, and finger movement that it seems like a flipbook.

Yet again I ask, what point in the video can you see the framerate might be hiding an extra shot per trigger pull?

It is easy to just say oh it's too slow and not enough, but it's just being lazy if you can't say exactly where the questionable part is.

"It just is" has never been a real answer to anything in an intelligent discussion.