Paintball

[Schmitti]

Also... you commented on my comment about scientific vs. "other" proof.... while you say that 30fps is enough for your 15bps trigger pulls.. it's not. THe sample rate (I have not even seen the video) is not enough to cover the movements... good science wants to use more numbers.

If you think you are pulling 15 bps.. then video at 400% (60fps). Then you will be sure to catch some of the non important moments... non useful data can always be weeded out... missing data can never be replaced.

Another thing... not having the equipment vs. saying it is not needed is two completely different things. You don't have a camear that shoots at 1600 fps , nor do I, nor do about 99% of the people out there... that doesn't mean you can say "Meh, science says it's not needed".... what you should have said (and it would have come off a 1000 times better)... this is the best that I can provide with the equipment I have.

Being humble doesn't hurt.

E

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Shane-O

And when a credible (I know Manike and dont doubt him, I know his backround to an extent) source says they have such video and he believes shows the same things as think are true, it is hard to just throw it all away for your proof.

This is the third time I've said this: Manike's videos and charts show only that it is probable that many guns bounce. It is NOT an absolute statement of truth. Manike does not have drg's gun to test, nor does he have a video of drg's triggering technique to show that drg's gun is in fact bouncing.

Manike only said that guns can and often do bounce which makes the shooter look fast.

I have to agree with Schmitti. The videos posted have not been clear enough to precisely discern whether or not 14-15bps is in fact being triggered without bounce. I do believe it can be done because I cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that it cannot be done but the evidence here has shown neither that it can be done or cannot be done.

[Schmitti]

You agreed with me? You may want to consult a psychiatrist

Gabe... I think the general idea is that in guns that are so lightly sprung that you can get these high rates of fire, that it would be the norm, rather than an exception, to have a gun that has trigger bounce.

The other part of manike's argument was that because of the above statement, and because of the inherrent programming on boards now, that it is pretty damn hard to get a gun to recognize a only true trigger pulls (ie. I pull my finger back against the trigger through a set and distinct distance)... as has been seen and indicated by both drg and manike (and others)... the gun will register any motion against a switch or through the beam as a trigger pull.

I see two ways around this... well actually three...

First, get rid of e-guns and the e-penis affect of BPS all together... which isn't going to happen... It would be like trying to take crack from a junkie.

Second... for micro switch guns, either cap them at 13 bps, or a universally decided humanly possible sustainable rate of fire, by program the board so that it will not fire unless someany seconds have gone by since the last firing event, or spring the micro switch better so that it doesn't go off with a gnats breath.... this mosquito pubic hair thickness trigger pull is the cause of the insane rates of fire... not peoples magically fast fingers.

Third.. for break beam guns... add another beam inside the grip to measure full travel... it has to have both beams exposed to end a firing event... that will ensure, again, that micro travel of a trigger won't set the gun off.

But all of those options require integrity and the desire of gun makers and users to want to have a gun that shoots at a real managable rate of fire that keeps the user in control... and not the gun.

These paintball guns are at this point, probably the only tool, gun, etc that allows the tool to be in full control rather than the operator... in any other sport or industry they would be illegal.

E

[drg]

Well, this has been fun. I can see that long-held beliefs cannot be challenged around here, even with solid evidence. People are too stubborn to change their way of thinking. They will just look for any excuse to keep their beliefs, even if it doesn't make sense.

We are not measuring the ability of any particular person on any particular gun, the ONLY claim by manike was that someone couldn't sustain 13 trigger pulls per second. Bouncing only matters if it's generating extra shots, and the video is clear enough to show that indeed the fingers are moving, obviously enough to activate a trigger, at a frequency of 13-15 trigger pulls per second. The minutiae of what is happening as the fingers contact the trigger, or anything about the trigger's motion don't matter. The firing of the marker is only relevant in that you can use it to count trigger pulls since there is one shot per finger motion.

It's not some grand coincidence that the shots track the finger motions exactly. It's denial on your parts if you believe so.

Here's the last video I'm going to post on the topic, it's actually been done for while now. Make of it what you will and please, think for yourself. I've been waiting to see whether people would recognize mob mentality or not, but I guess it's not going to happen, and now it looks like Gabe has even given in and does not trust his own eyes.

http://www.halfcocker.com/fingering.mpg

You will see that it takes about a second to get "dialed in" on how hard the trigger needs to be depressed, and even during that period there are 13 shots per second.

Regarding firing rate, I say the best limiter is to restrict players to single triggers and singer triggering. Frankly I'm surprised no one has come out with a real-deal 3 or 4-finger trigger yet.

[incynr8]

it seems to me the purpose of this thread is to discuss if PEOPLE can pull a trigger 13 times+ in one second, not that markers can fire that fast or faster.

Why not make a test device that counts simply trigger switch activations and compare that count to video in any reasonable speed to finger movements?

As long as it's some type of normal paintball marker trigger frame, throw on a unimount and bottle to keep it as marker like as possible, then just have a board that counts switch activations per second and nothing else, output to a display.

then all the contest galore can occur without all that firing noise to worry about.

[oldschool]

This sounds like a job for -

mythbusters.jpg


although I would much rather watch Kari handle it

kari_byron_004.jpg

[flyweightnate]

Originally Posted by drg

Well, this has been fun. I can see that long-held beliefs cannot be challenged around here, even with solid evidence. People are too stubborn to change their way of thinking. They will just look for any excuse to keep their beliefs, even if it doesn't make sense.

We are not measuring the ability of any particular person on any particular gun, the ONLY claim by manike was that someone couldn't sustain 13 trigger pulls per second. Bouncing only matters if it's generating extra shots, and the video is clear enough to show that indeed the fingers are moving, obviously enough to activate a trigger, at a frequency of 13-15 trigger pulls per second. The minutiae of what is happening as the fingers contact the trigger, or anything about the trigger's motion don't matter. The firing of the marker is only relevant in that you can use it to count trigger pulls since there is one shot per finger motion.

It's not some grand coincidence that the shots track the finger motions exactly. It's denial on your parts if you believe so.

Here's the last video I'm going to post on the topic, it's actually been done for while now. Make of it what you will and please, think for yourself. I've been waiting to see whether people would recognize mob mentality or not, but I guess it's not going to happen, and now it looks like Gabe has even given in and does not trust his own eyes.

http://www.halfcocker.com/fingering.mpg

You will see that it takes about a second to get "dialed in" on how hard the trigger needs to be depressed, and even during that period there are 13 shots per second.

Regarding firing rate, I say the best limiter is to restrict players to single triggers and singer triggering. Frankly I'm surprised no one has come out with a real-deal 3 or 4-finger trigger yet.

First, I like that video a lot better. It's larger, clearer, shows more of the fingers, and it's fast.

I still really wish I could slow it down (have a downloadable format? Quicktime wants my money before I can download an .mpeg) to see more intermediate points. In the slow motion part, the 7th or so pull is where it starts going fast, and it gets really "skippy"... I can't see much more than a blurry finger. Which a)shows it's moving pretty fast, so might be hitting that 13 or 15 but b) again leaves us in the dark as to if it's ACTUALLY doing it by itself. And around 3/7ths of the video in (no timer? wtf quicktime?) the sound doesn't quite line up with the shot on a few, probably just because of the framerate.

Again, I think it's possible. But you haven't given us any visual proof that there's no bounce, just proof that the fingers are as fast as the gun, which is fast. I'm content to wait patiently until you get a hold on a faster camera. I'm inclined to believe it's possible. But these guys are right, you haven't PROVED it's possible. (Then again, Manike hasn't proved it's impossible.)

[drg]

Originally Posted by flyweightnate

just proof that the fingers are as fast as the gun

So, does this or does this not prove that a person can sustain 13 trigger pulls per second?

[manike]

Originally Posted by drg

http://www.halfcocker.com/fingering.mpg

You will see that it takes about a second to get "dialed in" on how hard the trigger needs to be depressed, and even during that period there are 13 shots per second.

Here's the video I promised showing how often when trying to shoot fast you don't actually release the trigger between finger movements. Most people I've filmed at over 10 finger movements per second do this. The faster guys do it even more often. This was taken out of a string of fast shooting.

It's only a short clip because I tried to keep as high a resolution as possible. It was 40M when I was uploading it...

YouTube - Trigger pulls in slow motion - Mini

I'm sorry it's taking a while for me to get all my data in a line to present, I have more analysis stuff coming, due to some family issues I'm behind, but one thing comes to mind when watching that last video drg as that video doesn't look right to me. It's the way the gas appears at the end of the barrel and the way the leaves are moving looks just like it does after we speeded up some videos here by 10%. Either that or if the video's genuine then something is wrong with the frame rate and play back on my machine? It is interesting that if you have the ability to slow down footage you can also speed it up. Small increases or decreases in footage speed are very hard to detect.

I don't personally think that data is good enough for real validation. Sorry.

The thing is with any analysis, as has been pointed out, we can only analyze what data we have. We can't add information and we can't tell how it's been processed. We just have to look at what we are presented with. More on that in a post to come...

Video in effect is already relying on the fact that your brain lies to you. We aren't actually watching something real in motion. We are watching a series of still images and our brain lies to us and makes us believe we are seeing movement. There is no movement. The only real data "seen" in a video is the still images. So if we want to investigate the real data without our brains adding information for us and helping us to see patterns that don't exist we need to simply break it down to individual images/stills.

If we can see what we want from the stills that's when we know we are looking at the real data. If we don't see the real information from stills then the risk is anything else we were perceiving is information our brain made up for us.

Our brains are designed to look for patterns and make up information for us. This is why we see things in clouds that look familiar.

Don't want to believe your brain makes up stuff when it comes to your vision?

Do this simple test...

Blind Spot

The real fascinating thing for me about this whole discussion is the psychology element and human perception, not the engineering. I know what's happening technically, but people are such a fascinating unknown.

If I hadn't become an Engineer I would have become a psychologist, I may still go back to university for it one day when the yearning for further education takes control again.

We once took a gun (years ago now) that knowingly added shots based upon a "debounce" setting and asked people when they shot it if they felt it was semi. We could get to the point where we added 0.5 shots per pull after they achieved 5bps or more and people still believed it was all themselves.

It was actually hard not to laugh when people said that at higher settings they felt the gun was missing inputs, and at the lower settings they felt the gun was more in line with what their fingers were doing.

Part of the problem is that people want to believe they are that fast, therefore they are.

People watching also believed it was semi. People couldn't relate the finger movements to the sounds of the gun firing. Even when watching the slow motion version of the drg video above it's hard to make sure we are aligning one finger movement to one back block movement. I'll break it down into frames later so I can show what I mean.

This is one of the reasons why watching in real time at a Paintball event it's so hard to tell who has cheater guns and who does not.

We need good data that everybody can scrutinize and analyze. That's why it's a shame we can't video DRG with his gun. I'll be travelling the country this year. Maybe I'll be in your area and we can meet to film your gun and set up?

I'd love to get some high frame rates footage and it would be a much clearer cut case then.

I'll have a lot more when I get chance. I've found out how to download videos from you tube.

[manike]

Originally Posted by drg

So, does this or does this not prove that a person can sustain 13 trigger pulls per second?

Not at all. Doesn't even come close to "proving it".

I'm afraid your evidence and data simply have no way of being verified or substantiated by an independent source.