Paintball

[drg]

Originally Posted by raehl

I think a trigger pull is the movement, under force of a trigger finger, of the trigger past the trigger point, followed by the movement of the trigger back across that trigger point under the same force that resisted the original pull. (So no 4 lb of resistance to the pull followed by 8 lbs of force pushing the trigger back after the shot.)

That is a good point about reactivity ... was touched on earlier but not specifically addressed. I agree that it should be eliminated as far as determining how fast someone can pull a trigger.

I notice you did not mention any specific length of pull. Does this mean you agree the trigger does not have to be fully released to count as a pull?

[ceverhart]

I think the trigger needs to be fully released. I would define fully released as full trigger movement from rear trigger stop to front trigger stop. I do not think you need to remove fingers for it to happen.

[manike]

Originally Posted by drg

That is a good point about reactivity ... was touched on earlier but not specifically addressed. I agree that it should be eliminated as far as determining how fast someone can pull a trigger.

I notice you did not mention any specific length of pull. Does this mean you agree the trigger does not have to be fully released to count as a pull?

Yeah, you have to consider reactivity.

In the old days of working on mags, I proved I could get multiple shots on an RT without ever reducing the force. In fact it's possible to keep increasing the force and get more than one shot.

I also had an RT trigger set up with a spring between the trigger and the sear rod. By adjusting how much force you wanted to pull with you could get single shots or runaway mode. As a user you were just trying to apply the right amount of force and NEVER release it. The mechanics of the gun did the rest.

I also think you have to release the trigger for each pull, but I'm not sure I care about pull length as long as it's not dangerous and likely to occur accidental discharges. I'd want it to be measurable though.

Over the years I've been in many debates about what is and is not a trigger pull. I almost like the ATF one the best for being clear cut. There are so many grey areas.

How about

"The intentional pull and release of a trigger by the users finger with a corresponding and detectable forward and backward movement of the physical trigger."

Let's all put up definitions and see where we end up?

Very short triggers have always been more likely to have switch bounce and be more likely to have issues with mechanical bounce.

The Z-framed bushy 2K I was using at Skyball 2000 (not sure if it's in that video Chris ) has a very short and heavy trigger specifically so it would get bounce. I ran it with one of the first ever eyes systems and that gun was nuts for it's day.

[Schmitti]

manike... your definition is very similar to the one I put up several pages back.

It still allows for double triggers and two finger triggering... and as long as the trigger pull is something real (4mm come on ) it is something you can hold to as a standard.

E

[manike]

I'm a fan of the simplest rules that can be enforced.

Less shades of grey, more "black or white".

Ultimately, my feeling is that if you can't enforce a rule, you shouldn't have it.

I think if we went back to single triggers on electronic guns the world would be a VERY different place.

How's that for a rule!

[Gabe]

Gun makers should start making guns that use a pressure-sensitive strip or light beam instead of a trigger. That would eliminate mechanical bounce completely. Guns could be set for absolute true semi-auto.

[incynr8]

you can absolute true semi auto now, people just choose to 'get em quick' instead. My excal is only as fast as you are, hence I shoot 6-8 tops.

[manike]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Gun makers should start making guns that use a pressure-sensitive strip or light beam instead of a trigger. That would eliminate mechanical bounce completely. Guns could be set for absolute true semi-auto.

It's been tried with capacitance circuits and IR beams. It's ok, but has a few downsides too.

Originally Posted by incynr8

you can absolute true semi auto now, people just choose to 'get em quick' instead. My excal is only as fast as you are, hence I shoot 6-8 tops.

Very true. It's easy to have a proper electronics de-bounce circuit that avoids most of the issues of switch noise and mechanical bounce. Most of the original electronic guns actually had this. Then along came SP with Turbo and Jim Drew with adjustable debounce...

[drg]

So what about the 'touchpad' trigger idea? Sure it's probably not legal in just about any format, nor does it work very well. But if indeed you can tap it with your finger and fire a gun, how can you say that is not a trigger pull? Same applies to a breakbeam trigger or triggerless HES (magnet on glove).

EDIT: Oops missed Gabe's post, but exactly that. Would you say that activating a trigger like that is not a trigger pull?

[manike]

If there's no trigger to pull, and nothing being pulled... how can you have a 'trigger pull'?

You could have a "firing system activation"...