Paintball

[manike]

Originally Posted by drg

Is the slow-motion video not good enough for ya? I'm pulling far under 30 frames per second so you can clearly see each movement of the finger, including those that don't result in shots hehe

I could slow it down some more if you like ...

Here's blazestorm's ridiculous fingers. This video actually blurs out and you can't tell if it's legit, but I'm pretty sure he posted better versions of these a while back (including one with a TV in the background so you can see it's not sped up), and they were legit pulls.

YouTube - 05 lasoya paintball semi fast

Cool videos.

What it comes down to is, the difference between what you intended your fingers to be doing, what inputs (valid or not) that the gun gets, and what the electronics do with those inputs.

I made a quick video for you... I had to compress the hell out of it so it wasn't insanely huge. Normally the image is crisp and clear and not pixelated. I was trying to shoot as fast as possible and not doing too badly.

YouTube - Slow motion Paintball gun trigger pulling

My personal opinion is that you can see my intentions from the times my fingers go back and forth. That's what my brain impulses are sending to my trigger fingers. That's where I think we should count the 'pull' in 'one shot one pull'... Just for interest sakes how about people look at that video and say how many shots they think should have been fired...

Now you can see that sometimes the trigger moves even when I am intending to hold it back. That can be construed as mechanical bounce. With some guns there is a lot more mechanical motion inherent in the system (autocockers) or trigger geometry that takes advantage of that mechanical motion because of how it is laid out (intimidators are a great example of this, and why so many people find them easier to shoot fast when compared to other guns...). That leads to potential higher rates of inputs to the electronics, even though they weren't intentional trigger activations in my opinion.

Should that count as an intended shot? I don't think so... but so many of the guns nowadays can be or ARE purposely tuned to include such things. They could just as easily be designed not too...

One reason we used a HES on the mini is the very short activation it can pick up. Seen here as 1.6ms.


This means we can genuinely pick up the very fast activations cleanly and count them as semi auto activations. They are under the rules. There is no enhancement. But were they all actually corresponding to intended finger movements? Not always, depends on the circumstances.

I filmed that video at 1000 frames per second. So it's easy to count times between activations by just counting the frames.

I didn't spend too much time, but at one point I had shots at 60ms intervals which is 16.6bps. At other times it was more like 11.25bps, and there's no way my fingers moved back and forth at a sustained average over 13bps. We can make the gun do so though. Quite easily, and within the rules of semi-auto.

BTW, I'm thought of to have pretty quick fingers and shoot fast.

Now the big issue is the software... in the whole string that I filmed there was probably 30-40% of the time when one intended pull actually resulted in the physical trigger moving about a bit back and forth. We could either choose to accept that and use it initiate a shot... or ignore it.

If you choose to accept it, (there is no way, in my opinion, that it was an intended shot but you could legally tune the gun to accept it) then you can fire a ball each time it happens.

So with or without the ability of electronics you could just have each intended (as determined by an intended trigger finger motion) shot be a ball fired, but with the use of electronics you can increase the output (legally... ) by 20-40%.

So in summary... what the heck am I saying?

I'm saying that people can not, and DO NOT move their fingers as consistently as they claim, as fast as they claim or as fast as the shots out the end of the gun make it appear they might be.

The discussion of what should and should not be allowed in semi auto electronics... is another one.

[Robertsr]

...AAAAANnd it's Simon for the win!

Thanks for the science sir! I'm sure there are plenty of people who will poo-poo your analysis in favor of believing that they have superhuman powers, but I for one am glad to hear some facts enter the discussion.

[Azzy]

I think this thread needs to be saved at some point, or at least those posts.

[Shane-O]

Manike

Thanks for putting the facts out there about this. I knew in my heart that it was true, but had no facts to base it on. Hopefully, the fact that you were on the design team for the Mini, should give the nay sayers some credibility to the facts.

[flyweightnate]

Yes, nice tests indeed. I know for sure I'm bouncing a trigger hard when I get much above 12. Part of why I enjoy the PSP cap being at 13, now. My cocker doesn't bounce, and 13 lets me not be completely outshot

[russc]

Terrific posts from Zak and Simon. I like this thread. Can we keep her?

A whole generation of paintballers have come to accept and expect trigger bounce. Many of them don't even know that its there.

[manike]

Originally Posted by russc

A whole generation of paintballers have come to accept and expect trigger bounce. Many of them don't even know that its there.

That's a good post too. So true. A shame I think.

[drg]

Originally Posted by manike

Cool videos.

What it comes down to is, the difference between what you intended your fingers to be doing, what inputs (valid or not) that the gun gets, and what the electronics do with those inputs.

I made a quick video for you... I had to compress the hell out of it so it wasn't insanely huge. Normally the image is crisp and clear and not pixelated. I was trying to shoot as fast as possible and not doing too badly.

YouTube - Slow motion Paintball gun trigger pulling

My personal opinion is that you can see my intentions from the times my fingers go back and forth. That's what my brain impulses are sending to my trigger fingers. That's where I think we should count the 'pull' in 'one shot one pull'... Just for interest sakes how about people look at that video and say how many shots they think should have been fired...

Now you can see that sometimes the trigger moves even when I am intending to hold it back. That can be construed as mechanical bounce. With some guns there is a lot more mechanical motion inherent in the system (autocockers) or trigger geometry that takes advantage of that mechanical motion because of how it is laid out (intimidators are a great example of this, and why so many people find them easier to shoot fast when compared to other guns...). That leads to potential higher rates of inputs to the electronics, even though they weren't intentional trigger activations in my opinion.

Should that count as an intended shot? I don't think so... but so many of the guns nowadays can be or ARE purposely tuned to include such things. They could just as easily be designed not too...

One reason we used a HES on the mini is the very short activation it can pick up. Seen here as 1.6ms.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...r1point6ms.jpg

This means we can genuinely pick up the very fast activations cleanly and count them as semi auto activations. They are under the rules. There is no enhancement. But were they all actually corresponding to intended finger movements? Not always, depends on the circumstances.

I filmed that video at 1000 frames per second. So it's easy to count times between activations by just counting the frames.

I didn't spend too much time, but at one point I had shots at 60ms intervals which is 16.6bps. At other times it was more like 11.25bps, and there's no way my fingers moved back and forth at a sustained average over 13bps. We can make the gun do so though. Quite easily, and within the rules of semi-auto.

BTW, I'm thought of to have pretty quick fingers and shoot fast.

Now the big issue is the software... in the whole string that I filmed there was probably 30-40% of the time when one intended pull actually resulted in the physical trigger moving about a bit back and forth. We could either choose to accept that and use it initiate a shot... or ignore it.

If you choose to accept it, (there is no way, in my opinion, that it was an intended shot but you could legally tune the gun to accept it) then you can fire a ball each time it happens.

So with or without the ability of electronics you could just have each intended (as determined by an intended trigger finger motion) shot be a ball fired, but with the use of electronics you can increase the output (legally... ) by 20-40%.

So in summary... what the heck am I saying?

I'm saying that people can not, and DO NOT move their fingers as consistently as they claim, as fast as they claim or as fast as the shots out the end of the gun make it appear they might be.

The discussion of what should and should not be allowed in semi auto electronics... is another one.

I think as a software and gun engineer, you may be looking at this a little too microscopically, perhaps a case of missing the forest for the trees. The nuances of switch input in the end are irrelevant to whether or not a shooter sustains a given triggering rate, in fact looking at the trigger inputs as you demonstrate can be misleading due to trigger and switch bounce. As you say, the movement of the finger itself is what matters when judging 'trigger intent' ... all the machinations of the marker and software in a true semi setup are ostensibly there to translate the intended trigger pull into a single shot.

Macroscopically, however, it is often not difficult to view a video even at the typical 30 frames per second and see whether a person is getting significant bounce or not. Watching triggering events as they relate to marker firing events is where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

There are a few things about the way my particular setup and "technique," if you can call it that, that help this macroscopic analysis. First, at least on my eblades, I set my trigger longer than most would (3-4mm). This is because I dislike the feeling of bounce (and ramp) and set my guns to tune it out. I prefer a single shot for a singe pull. Second, in the video presented, I am triggering with the middle phalanx (middle finger bone) or just at the distal joint of the middle phalanx, using relatively gross motions, rather than the typical twitch motion employed when people use the distal phalanx (fingertip). This makes it much easier to judge my trigger intent. Third, as the marker is an autococker, you can clearly see the events in the firing cycle.

As a result it is very easy to see on the video that at no point do I get more than one shot out of the marker for a single gross motion of my finger intended to produce a triggering event. I have verified this at up to 1/8 speed, which is equivalent roughly to 240 frames per second.

I ask you, and the others who have commented in this thread: What do your eyes tell you, especially in the latter part of the video where I have slowed it down for you? Do you see any evidence of bounce there, and if so, where? Is there anything remotely close to a 20-40% artificial increase in firing rate over my triggering rate?

I suppose a case in point is that I can fire my pneumag marginally faster than my 'cocker (it has a shorter pull of ~1mm). There isn't any signal interpretation going on there at all, so perhaps it's a better candidate for thinking about rate of fire for what it is, rather than thinking of it as a function of the electronics.

I have shot various other types of markers, and the results stand up within about 1 bps, leading me to believe that regardless of the differences in trigger processing algorithms, trigger geometries and operational recoil between markers, I am getting a fairly representative count of my finger speed. Subjectively, I do not think I fire fast enough that I would be unable to tell when I am getting bounce/added shots, so I have discarded results from markers I know were bouncing or ramping.

Now I do not want to make this all about me, this is strictly an example. I feel that I have perhaps slightly faster than average fingers, and I am fairly sure a good number of people can match or exceed that. But I believe most people can reach 13 bps without too much trouble. Whether they can sustain that is another question, and that's where raw speed comes in, due to averaging.

[Daze]

Embedded in that last post is a worthwhile idea. Someone needs to take a well tuned pneumag to EMR for the testing. It takes electronic trigger slop right out of the equation.

[manike]

I know that my eyes are the WORST measuring tool I have.

Often things I am sure I can see prove to be wrong when correctly measured. It's a tough lesson to learn.

Is there anyway I can get the original video file to download or actually download the file from you tube to take a look at with our video software?

I once saw video of a very well known player shooting a gun fast. Everyone was amazed at his talent. Then a friend and I slowed the footage down and actually saw what was going on... Auto response mode.

That's partly what gave me the idea to use the high speed camera to see how fast people really can move their fingers.