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Old 08-26-2008, 10:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duzzy View Post
That question is, are they sticking to that standard?

They're advertising that the ball will travel with more momentum, which, if true means that they are deviating from that standard. Or course it could all be marketing, but I'd be curious to know.
Indeed it is a significant question, since goggle lenses are surely tested to those standards.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:37 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Satclaire View Post
I'd just as soon have a new standard, replace my masks, and get a denser projectile moving at the same velocity. Better ballistics.
The idiots we have now are doing enough damage with what they have.

I'd rather have to move a few feet closer to shoot someone then see someone get hurt more.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:45 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duzzy View Post
The idiots we have now are doing enough damage with what they have.

I'd rather have to move a few feet closer to shoot someone then see someone get hurt more.
IIRC the weight was chosen based on impact force at 300 fps ... for some reason the number 10 joules comes to mind ... which is supposedly a force at which no permanent injury to the human body is done.

Increasing projectile weight may cause injuries.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:46 PM   #34 (permalink)
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drg, I think it had to do with pinky breakage too (wrapped around gripframe)
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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i used to stock the red fill Nel-Spot paint.
which in their words is "American Flag Red" and it pretty well was.
couldn't keep it on the shelves it sold out that fast.
but in sun light the fill colour faded out to nil in a matter of seconds.
Commercial Fields in Niagara Could not use it because of insurance reg.s but if given the choice i don't think they would have used it anyway.
which i have no problem with.
if you are playing Paintball on your own land with your own group of fully informed people, you can do what ever you like.
North America is still free as far as i know, and until you violate someone else's rights you can pretty much do as you want.
(other laws taken into account)

follow your fields rules
play fair
play safe

and let those of character stand tall while those that seek a quick thrill learn the hard lessons.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:05 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Satclaire View Post
Yes, we've had this conversation in terms of why 300 was settled on. I would happily risk fractured pinky bones and/or deal with a gloves requirement in exchange for a better performing projectile.

But realistically, I don't see these things flying if they somehow skew the safety rules currently in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drg View Post
IIRC the weight was chosen based on impact force at 300 fps ... for some reason the number 10 joules comes to mind ... which is supposedly a force at which no permanent injury to the human body is done.
Increasing projectile weight may cause injuries.
It is possible that injuries maybe incured at the same velocity with a higher mass, but with the current
insurance reg.s keeping the velocity of commercial fields between 280 and 290 FPS. i don't think the velocity will be an issue.
BTW 10 Joules is way too high, almost twice the current limit.
but there are some Police ammunition that uses that kind of energy.
it will stop a person but not travel too far if the officer misses.

WARPIG - World And Regional Paintball Information Guide

The final text in the Criminal Code (as proposed in Bill C-15) will read like this:

(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and
117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act,
The following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(d) any other barreled weapon, where it is proved that the
weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle
velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed
or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an
energy exceeding 5.7 Joules.

In order to interpret the language properly, you must take into account both 'NOT's. I used a small table in MS EXCEL to work out the logic using the logic functions OR and NOT - just like in the Bill. Here is how it goes:

***********
You DO NOT have a firearm IF the following statement is true:
(Projectile does NOT exceed 152.4 metres per second (500fps) OR
projectile does NOT exceed 5.7 Joules)


Quote:
Originally Posted by LK-13 View Post
lets remember how 300FPS got set as the safe upper limit in the first place.

one of the early big wigs in the sport
(Bud Orr claims it was him, others say he's full of beans,
Glenn Palmer thinks it was Charlie Gaines or Hayes Noel and that sounds more believable to me)
was having people playing at his field complain of broken fingers after taking a shot to the hand.
well this being a "spoil your day" kind of thing,
this early founder of Paintball went to see an Orthopedic Surgeon to find out just how much force can the fingers take before injury.
The surgeon didn't know for sure,
so they set up some experiments much like the Mythbusters would do.
they found that the bones in the fingers, the most vulnerable bones during a game of Paintball, could sustain an impact of 310 to 315FPS before sustaining significant injury.
So our Paintball founding father chose 300Fps to give a margin of safety.
insurance companies later chose to increase that safety margin by lowering muzzle velocity to 280 to 285FPS.


so there you have it.
the velocity we all accept as being safe 300FPS was actually set to keep you from breaking someone else's fingers.

now just so you don't say that I'm just pulling that out of my butt,
these facts and more can be found in:
"THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO PAINTBALL" by Jerry Braun, Steve Davidson, Justin Owen, Peter Robinson, Rob Rubin, Stew Smith Photos by: Peter "field" Peck
and
"ULTIMATE GUIDE TO PAINTBALL" Action Pursuit Games Edited by John R. Little and Curtis F. Wong
corroborated by:
Glenn Palmer on the POG forum in early 2004 in conversation with myself and others.
(Drum i seem to remember you being part of that thread)

Last edited by LK-13; 08-26-2008 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:10 PM   #37 (permalink)
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It bears mentioning that velocity means nothing without knowing the mass, as far as force or energy.
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
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BTW for those of you that don't know why some of us have issues with red paint, let me enlighten. Many of us have lived in an area or kept up with the news about local govn. trying to close or outlaw pball fields, why because of image. Pball is viewed as violent guys with guns trying to "kill each other or practice war". RED PAINT is bad for our image, which is why older/mature/having been there players refer to markers and the game or the sport of pball, that it is tag not shooting, why we choose our words carefully, has nothing to do with those in the game, has to do with the half wits not IN the game that seem to have nothing better to do than try to restrict us or get rid of us because we don't fit their vision of a world without anything real or agressive. Image to the outside world is why red is bad now, in the future, and in the past. -end old guy rant- I like red but bad for pball.
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Old 08-27-2008, 02:43 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I've never bought into the whole "marker" thing. Yes, when I ship paintball guns across the border I label them as "markers". Other than that, it's a gun. I don't see how calling a paintball gun a "marker" makes one bit of difference. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. I have kids and I make it *very* clear to them what the potential damage of any gun is. The more difficult distinction is guns that are made to be shot at people under the correct circumstances and ones that aren't. Either way, I teach them that it is indeed a gun and proper gun safety should be used at all times when around guns.

I believe way to much weight is put into this simple term. The word is used commonly used even by the most PC. The word gun *can* have some negative connotations but at the same time is simply a descriptive word to describe something that (in most cases) shoots out *something*. Let me offer some other examples and if you choose to be consistently PC in all cases some PC alternatives.

Nerf gun - Nerf Blaster (Term used by nerf I think)
Cap gun - Cap shooter offer
Water gun - Super soaker, water shooter
Rubber band gun - Block of wood
Nail gun - Nail shooter inner
Staple gun - Staple inserter
Spray gun - Paint sprayer
Heat gun - Thing that shoots out really hot air
Caulk gun - No idea....

All I know is the next time I go into the hardware store and want a caulk GUN, that's what I'm gonna ask for. You?
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Last edited by MaD; 08-27-2008 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 03:09 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaD View Post
I've never bought into the whole "marker" thing. Yes, when I ship paintball guns across the border I label them as "markers". Other than that, it's a gun. I don't see how calling a paintball gun a "marker" makes one bit of difference. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. I have kids and I make it *very* clear to them what the potential damage of any gun is. The more difficult distinction is guns that are made to be shot at people under the correct circumstances and ones that aren't. Either way, I teach them that it is indeed a gun and proper gun safety should be used at all times when around guns.

I believe way to much weight is put into this simple term. The word is used commonly used even by the most PC. The word gun *can* have some negative connotations but at the same time is simply a descriptive word to describe something that (in most cases) shoots out *something*. Let me offer some other examples and if you choose to be consistently PC in all cases some possible PC alternatives.

All I know is the next time I go into the hardware store and want a caulk GUN, that's what I'm gonna ask for. You?
Yeah I don't go for the "marker" thing myself most of the time, or rather, I don't pay attention to its connotation. I unapologetically use gun, despite being a person who battled paintball's image problems firsthand when I started out and remaining cognizant of other image issues.
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