Paintball

[Fubarius]

This is partially in response to this post here...
.50 Caliber Paint Data and Test Video - Part 2
...though I'm drifting a bit too far off topic for that thread, so I'm separated it.

One thing about the whole .50 cal "revolution" has been bugging me and it reminded me of something that's been bugging me for a while. In addition to certain people of influence willing to be "spoon fed the hype and willing to regurgetate it back without thinking or questioning", I keep seeing ordinary players saying things like "I doubt the industry would release this with out extensive research and testing" and the like. They're the industry full of smart people who know what they're doing.

Since when have we believed that? The paintball industry is notorious for half baked ideas, unfulfilled promises, out right lies, and taking tons of shortcuts. For the longest time we relied on the industry (specifically the gun manufacturers) for the base model only. Refining the gear was taken care of by the players and aftermarket who were mostly players as well. A player comes up with a doodad that makes his gun work better, all his friends want one too and presto, instant aftermarket company. When I first started everybody was shooting cockers, but NO ONE used one right out of the box. Entire companies were formed around the idea of making some paintball gun or another work better. A significant chunk of a local proshops income came from the selling and installation of these improvements. I know one local shop loved the original Dye matrix (aka DM3), and would sell them cheaper than they were available on-line. He knew he'd made more money on the aftermarket (almost a requirement to upgrade the HPR, LPR, feedneck, and barrel, and quite possible a lot more) than he would ever be able to make on the initial gun sale.

These days, we have players believing that the stock parts are best, since their gun was "designed to use it". I've had a local player tell me with a straight face that every part on his old Ego8 was perfect and could NOT be improved, but the SL8R he just bought was totally worth the excessive price since it was BETTER. For example he claimed it had a much better HPR. I pointed out he could have just upgraded the HPR on his old gun. He reiterated that the old HPR was perfect and couldn't be upgraded.
We wait for the manufacturers to come out with the next new model, instead of figuring out what needs to be improved all on our own.

[Rickfactor2]

Having played for 20+ years as well as worked in a store for 12 years, I know that aftermarket parts do not always produce superior results. Some are inferior and others show neglible change. I have owned many Intimidators and at least 5 egos with stock parts with zero issues. For cockers, many of the aftermarket parts are horrible, most notibly DYE pneumatics. I see people "upgrading" the regs on their PE or Crossfire tanks with GA regs. Are they not just replacing a good reg, albeit heavy, with one with butter soft threads and oft-complained about regulation issues that just makes their gun half an inch shorter ? True there are some upgrades that are must haves such as a clamping feed on an ION or a better barrel for many of the Tippmann guns but is more expensive really equal better ? If I pay $1500 for a gun, I expect every stock part to be the one that I use.

If you say "The paintball industry is notorious for half baked ideas, unfulfilled promises, out right lies, and taking tons of shortcuts" how do we know that its not the actual aftermarket parts that are the hype and "players believing that the stock parts are best" is the real truth ?

[Prepaid Lenin]

Why bother worrying about it? Bad companies make mediocre things for stupid people, so what? It's not like paintball is going to "die" for any reason, so just kick back and enjoy the ride.

[Dr. Isotope]

Originally Posted by Prepaid Lenin

Why bother worrying about it? Bad companies make mediocre things for stupid people, so what? It's not like paintball is going to "die" for any reason, so just kick back and enjoy the ride.

I'm guessing you haven't been playing for very long. Back in the early/mid nineties, I could take a trip down to SC Village and an average Saturday afternoon would have 30 v. 30 or even 50 v. 50 games on the bigger fields. Today, general walk-on is more like 10 v. 10 or 12 v. 12. And back then, everything cost more. Then, a full day for just me could cost close to $100. Three of us went a few weeks ago for less than that.

The biggest group there on that recent trip? Airsofters. Paintball may not die anytime soon, but it isn't exactly in the greatest state of health.

[chrislognshot]

Dr. Isotope i miss those days. there where times if had over 50 they would break it up. since to many people on field been few times where made it 30 on 30 for day. i also seen early 90's where could get 20 on 20 pump too. i was one few beside gramps and grizzly to play pump along with the semis too.

[Fubarius]

Originally Posted by Rickfactor2

Having played for 20+ years as well as worked in a store for 12 years, I know that aftermarket parts do not always produce superior results. Some are inferior and others show neglible change. I have owned many Intimidators and at least 5 egos with stock parts with zero issues.

Here's something though, if there were no issues, why the 5 different egos? Wouldn't the first one have been fine? The closest thing to a near "perfect" stock gun I've owned was my Viking (needed only feed neck, barrel, and tank mounting device of my choice). I've only ever bought one since any other one bought would just be the same. Any improvements that have been developed lately (millings, anno's, boards, valves, etc) can be applied to my original if I so desire.

For cockers, many of the aftermarket parts are horrible, most notibly DYE pneumatics.

Oh, many were released just to jump on the bandwagon of the market of the time, can't deny that. Though I find it funny that now DYE apparently makes the 'best' regulator out there.

I see people "upgrading" the regs on their PE or Crossfire tanks with GA regs. Are they not just replacing a good reg, albeit heavy, with one with butter soft threads and oft-complained about regulation issues that just makes their gun half an inch shorter ?

I find it more strange that there are ways to make your tank setup a half inch shorter with out replacing the reg on the tank, but people refuse to use them.

True there are some upgrades that are must haves such as a clamping feed on an ION or a better barrel for many of the Tippmann guns but is more expensive really equal better ? If I pay $1500 for a gun, I expect every stock part to be the one that I use.

I have no interest in a $1500 gun. Give me that same gun with out the barrel, regs, feedneck, ASA, and maybe a few other choice bits (or go with cheap placeholder parts), simplify the milling and go with basic black anno for half the price. I'll swap in parts I already own to complete it and have near-equal to better performance. If next year they come up with a real improvement on something, sell me just what they've improved.

If you say "The paintball industry is notorious for half baked ideas, unfulfilled promises, out right lies, and taking tons of shortcuts" how do we know that its not the actual aftermarket parts that are the hype and "players believing that the stock parts are best" is the real truth ?

If the stock parts on the DM8 were the best, there's no reason for a DM9. I find it funny we went from believing everything the aftermarket said, to everything the gun manufacturers say. We've learned to doubt one, but have forgotten how to doubt the other.

[heinous]

Originally Posted by Fubarius

Since when have we believed that? The paintball industry is notorious for half baked ideas, unfulfilled promises, out right lies, and taking tons of shortcuts.

read what i sigged.

from my experience those who have faith in the industry's sales pitches are the ones who are still too young to tell science from pseudoscience. they can watch and infomercial and think everything said in them are true, because they are unable to think of workarounds that the infomercials used to make their sales pitches convincing.

it's not that they're stupid, they're just inexperienced because of their age.

although, i have to say, i could tell those scams at a very young age.

[chrislognshot]

most of young kids saw all pro teams get new guns each year. by see them get new version of said they think better the stock one. for some reason people want to buy looks cool and hip. so if a lot pro teams are buying the new cool and hip gun they want it too. we live in day an age where people want to use what pros use. since do not know better and have parents will to spend money comes off tree. if most parents did research and read up on stuff. also ask question when need to ask. for most part it was great thing and bad thing. yes made sport stand out more. but also made sport look bad too in long run. we peaked and now going to take some time for paintball to climb back up the hill after we fall down for awhile.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Dr. Isotope

I'm guessing you haven't been playing for very long. Back in the early/mid nineties, I could take a trip down to SC Village and an average Saturday afternoon would have 30 v. 30 or even 50 v. 50 games on the bigger fields. Today, general walk-on is more like 10 v. 10 or 12 v. 12. And back then, everything cost more. Then, a full day for just me could cost close to $100. Three of us went a few weeks ago for less than that.

The biggest group there on that recent trip? Airsofters. Paintball may not die anytime soon, but it isn't exactly in the greatest state of health.

Isn't SC Village a well known field in southern California, an area of a huge population base? Why are there so few people playing paintball there these days?

We had two drop in games of about 25 vs. 25 as well as private games yesterday and a drop in game of about 30 vs 30 today (slow day today) in lil' ole Victoria with a realtively small population. This is fairly typical for us.

There must be more to the SC Village story.

[heinous]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Isn't SC Village a well known field in southern California, an area of a huge population base? Why are there so few people playing paintball there these days?

We had two drop in games of about 25 vs. 25 as well as private games yesterday and a drop in game of about 30 vs 30 today (slow day today) in lil' ole Victoria with a realtively small population. This is fairly typical for us.

There must be more to the SC Village story.

Probably because management sucks. Went to Decay of Nations 2 and if that event was any indication it must be badly run on a regular day.

Every time I go to Camp Pendleton they have at least 25v25 for intermediate walk on alone. not counting rental walk on and advanced walk on.