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Yomillio 01-27-2013 09:05 PM

Help with PayPal Dispute / Phantom Leak
 
Hey all,

I need your help today. At the end of December, I sold a Phantom here to a blue member. It left my hands in working condition - no leaks or problems. This past Saturday, the buyer contacted me stating that the Phantom leaked from the two holes atop the valve body when he attempted to go play with it the other day. I thought, well, okay, fine, maybe something happened in shipping it.

So, I began to walk through troubleshooting steps with him to try and fix it. Last contact I made with him was me sending him a PM, instructing him to take apart the valve (which he more or less already has done - more on that later) and clean / lube everything, swap cupseals with the extra one that was supplied with the sale, etc. He hasn't logged on since.

Anyway, I find last night that earlier in the day he had filed a PayPal dispute, claiming the item was significantly different than stated and he filied for a $30 refund. Now, on top of the $30 being a rather HUGE sum for this problem (you can buy a parts kit for $15), I'm miffed because he made no mention of it to me here in PM's, and also because it did leave my hands without the leak - and I believe he is doing this because he feels he paid more than he wished for the marker. And of course, PayPal put the transaction amount on hold, so now I have $200 not available to me.

Oh, and just yesterday he listed the majority of the parts he bought off me (including the supposedly leaking valve body - and didn't mention anything about it leaking in the sale post) for sale here. So any attempts to troubleshoot it with him will be moot.

Does anyone know if this leak is even feasible / what would cause it? The marker does have a Stabilizer equipped - would the pressure being too low cause such a thing? If I can somehow suggest that this leak was user error on his part, it might help me I suppose. But that said, it may not matter-

So, my question is more-or-less, how should I proceed?

Now, I haven't yet responded in the PayPal claim. I can either:

1.) Meet the demands of his dispute, and I'm out $30 for something that as far as I'm concerned, isn't my fault at all.

2.) Fight the dispute, and hope to win in a manner of ways:
-2a. Offer a different refund amount to make him happy
-2b. Deny the refund request but attempt to keep communicating with him and somehow resolve it with him, which is probably unlikely
-2c. Escalate the dispute to a PayPal claim and hope to keep all of my money, but I don't know if I can win this - any experience of sellers here?

I could care less about "winning or losing", I just want to keep as much of my money as possible. Does anyone here have experience with this process, and have any advice on how I should proceed? I don't know if I should just hedge my bets, give him the money he wants, and call it a "lost the battle but won the war" or what. That, and I would like access to the money that PayPal has so kindly taken out of my account at this time. I'd rather not have a situation where PayPal steps in and refunds his money and instructs him to send the marker back to me, just to end up with no marker and no money.

Well, thanks for the help for now, and I will update here with any news. I appreciate your input as I get stressed about this stuff fairly easily and hate having this crap hanging over my head. Thanks all.

idkfa 01-27-2013 09:17 PM

Is it a Stabilizer valve? The only place a stock CCI valve can leak from is the front (via the powertube nut o-ring) or the side NPT fitting. There aren't any other passages into the valve chamber, unless the site rail holes were drilled too deep.

Yomillio 01-27-2013 09:26 PM

Nope, stock valve with (basically) a sideline Stab.

Here is where he states it is leaking from:

http://s9.postimage.org/twgfkifxr/photo.jpg

So, I'm not crazy, and those are in fact the sight rail holes? (I've never been a huge Phantom guy, TBH).

...so how do I proceed here?

Falcon16 01-27-2013 09:26 PM

Just to play devil's advocate and I'm not attacking you here since I know you're a long standing member like myself but what proof do you have that's he's lying? I'm not saying his actions after the fact aren't shady as :censored: but unless you have concrete solid evidence to back up your claim to paypal that it left your hands working and if it's not now then he obviously did something or something happened in shipping that could claim against the shipping company for then I think you're SOL.

At the end of the day paypal is setup in such a way that unless there is a TON of proof it's a scam the buyer will win in about 99% of cases. I would say if you really want it done and over with show him that a parts kit is $15 and offer that as a refund amount and be FIRM!. If he refuses then HE looks like he's being unreasonable to paypal.

If he refuses the $15 then I'd say might as well escalate it and have paypal sort it out. Since if he refuses the $15 that is reasonable and keeps demanding $30 all the while looking to be able to sell the supposedly "leaky" valve body (which I've no idea how the valve body would leak it's just a metal shell really and as long it seals the leaking can't come from there) then he's an idiot. With that said we're just hearing your side of it I'd say before being able to give you a straight concrete answer we all have to know what was said in the PM's

artguy63 01-27-2013 09:41 PM

Save all of the PMs, document that he's trying to sell the parts, and I agree with Falcon..parts kit or take it up to Paypal.

And yes, those holes are just for the sight rail. I'd have to drag mine out, which if need be I can, but I believe that there are stainless inserts in there as well that are Loctited (I think?) from the factory and it's uber rare that they will ever leak.

The only thing I can think of is if he has the pressure too low on the Stab, then it could not allow it to close, making him think its leaking from the top 2 holes. Ask him what pressure he has the Stab at.

Yomillio 01-27-2013 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon16 (Post 2606216)
Just to play devil's advocate and I'm not attacking you here since I know you're a long standing member like myself but what proof do you have that's he's lying? I'm not saying his actions after the fact aren't shady as :censored: but unless you have concrete solid evidence to back up your claim to paypal that it left your hands working and if it's not now then he obviously did something or something happened in shipping that could claim against the shipping company for then I think you're SOL.

Naw, don't worry about it. I appreciate your input. That's the thing, I can't prove anything except whatever my word is good for. Not that he can prove anything either as far as I'm concerned, unless he puts up a clear video of it leaking. I know that's moot anyway, for what you mention below about PayPal siding with buyers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon16 (Post 2606216)
At the end of the day paypal is setup in such a way that unless there is a TON of proof it's a scam the buyer will win in about 99% of cases. I would say if you really want it done and over with show him that a parts kit is $15 and offer that as a refund amount and be FIRM!. If he refuses then HE looks like he's being unreasonable to paypal.

Seems like a good idea here, assuming I can't use the "site rail holes" thing for something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon16 (Post 2606216)
If he refuses the $15 then I'd say might as well escalate it and have paypal sort it out. Since if he refuses the $15 that is reasonable and keeps demanding $30 all the while looking to be able to sell the supposedly "leaky" valve body (which I've no idea how the valve body would leak it's just a metal shell really and as long it seals the leaking can't come from there) then he's an idiot. With that said we're just hearing your side of it I'd say before being able to give you a straight concrete answer we all have to know what was said in the PM's

Yeah, I have presented the facts as objectively and clearly as I can (granted, you know what side I take in this :)). Really nothing more of note was said via PM's, as I've only exchanged a few with him to this point. In his last, he provided that picture I supplied above. The rest were mostly just us going back and forth (rather amicably) about clarifying the leak location, etc.

maggot 01-27-2013 09:54 PM

Don't believe all the hoo ha about buyers wining 99% of the time, it's not true. Don't be intimidated by the process, it takes a week or more as Paypal needs to determine who is telling the truth. Unless it was leaking when you sold it, don't give him the $30 without a fight.
From here on out you should not communicate via PM. All your communications should take place in Paypal's dispute center. You should supply the link to your original sale thread and the link to his new sale thread (screen grab his sale just in case he deletes it). Calmly state your position that it did not leak and that there is no place it could be leaking where he says it is.

Good luck!

MaD 01-27-2013 10:09 PM

Tell him you'd gladly offer him a full refund for return of the gun. It's basically the "not as advertised" clause. If it's not as advertised the buyer can return the item for a refund. He cannot demand you send money back for parts he bought on his own.

I'd also call paypal and explain the situation immediately. He CANNOT file a dispute then start selling the items under dispute.

Falcon16 01-27-2013 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaD (Post 2606274)
Tell him you'd gladly offer him a full refund for return of the gun. It's basically the "not as advertised" clause. If it's not as advertised the buyer can return the item for a refund. He cannot demand you send money back for parts he bought on his own.

I'd also call paypal and explain the situation immediately. He CANNOT file a dispute then start selling the items under dispute.

This is why on ebay it's clearly stated that paintball items in about 99% of cases are sold AS-IS and it's spelled out so that the buyer can't use that not as advertised clause. I figure same here. Not saying **** doesn't happen but tbh it's a phantom for god sake. It's the simplest marker on the market. has literally 2 orings and a couple seals and that's it. If you can't tech a phantom you should hang up your mask in shame AFAIC. Basically if it were an older more complex marker that not everyone would know how it operates I could see this stuff being more common but a phantom? COME O?N!:huh::huh::huh:. With that said I will admit I have sold markers that leaked but it was known to the buyer they did. Heck my old longbow mag did for no apparent reason. Worked fine at home then I put a tank on it at the field and it leaks. I ended up trading it to ratzo he rebuilt the entire valve with all new seals and rings and it STILL to this day will not work in any marker he's ever tried it in. We're both stumped on that one haha.

MaD 01-27-2013 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon16 (Post 2606295)
This is why on ebay it's clearly stated that paintball items in about 99% of cases are sold AS-IS and it's spelled out so that the buyer can't use that not as advertised clause. I figure same here. Not saying **** doesn't happen but tbh it's a phantom for god sake. It's the simplest marker on the market. has literally 2 orings and a couple seals and that's it. If you can't tech a phantom you should hang up your mask in shame AFAIC. Basically if it were an older more complex marker that not everyone would know how it operates I could see this stuff being more common but a phantom? COME O?N!:huh::huh::huh:. With that said I will admit I have sold markers that leaked but it was known to the buyer they did. Heck my old longbow mag did for no apparent reason. Worked fine at home then I put a tank on it at the field and it leaks. I ended up trading it to ratzo he rebuilt the entire valve with all new seals and rings and it STILL to this day will not work in any marker he's ever tried it in. We're both stumped on that one haha.

Actually, putting "as-is" in the description means nothing at all. Ebay has a drop down that clearly classifies the item. It's "New", "Used (working)", or "Not working / for parts". If you list it as "Used" and put "as-is" it should still arrive working. If it leaks or doesn't work the seller will lose the case.


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