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Old 01-22-2013, 03:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pif View Post
Nice work guys!
I'm glad you liked it. I hope it helps!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Good work so far UV Halo!
I have a point to consider that may be a part of the 'fairly' in fairly accurate. Vortex shedding is a dominant factor in the flight of the paintball. The wind interacts with these vortices, fighting some and assisting others. Due to the random directions these vortices force the ball in, at 3-5G's of acceleration, it causes individual balls to slow down at an unpredictable rate. A ball that had 6 vortices try to push it upwind and 3 downwind will be slower at distance X than a ball that had 6 downwind pushes and 3 upwind pushes.

One factor that Cockerpunk and BryceLarson refused to investigate was the factor of internal turbulence in the ball itself. My contention is that as co2 at the ball edge, where it touches the barrel on it's travels, side fills any irregularity it causes turbulence in the ball, often starting a wave inside the ball that gives a kick at the muzzle. A tiny, tiny kick. However multiplied by distance, it can be a huge effect.
By accident years ago, when trying to improve the accuracy of my .50 cal 3357 pistol, I discovered this effect by eliminating it.
In ordering both a 50 cal flexhone and another 68cal flexhone I discovered that there was a superfine polishing hone that had never been used for paintball. This 1200grit polishing hone was only made to that point for automotive cylinders. I special ordered one of each in 50 and 68cal. This hone plateaus the finish of an aluminum or steel barrel to the point where any irregularity is smaller than a co2 molecule is wide.
The only thing this could possibly accomplish is to stop this turbulence if it existed as a factor.
This honing process makes such a huge difference in how accurate a paintgun is that it's immediately visible to the naked eye.
This leads me to deduce that the turbulence A. exists and B. affects accuracy big time.

I will make you the same offer I made Cockerpunk and Bryce. Send me a barrel, I will hone it and send it back. Tell me what threads and I will hone a barrel here and just mail it to you!
Using this barrel will give you a sample group without a hidden variable and using that, your equations will do better than 'Fairly' accurate.

Rob
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Just to clarify and I'm not bragging here- When I say "fairly accurate predictions", I mean my techniques are sound. For example, in my initial calculations for FS rounds maximum range at 280FPS, I came up with 519ft. A couple weeks later, Mike from TechPB fired a whole bunch of rounds, on camera and ultimately had one hit Willie on the shoulder at 517' (at which point in the trajectory the round would be falling more downwards, than forwards).

As for regular paintball drag consistency, they actually are good. Consider the data collected by Bryce and Cockerpunk here. I ran Ballistic Coefficients (BC) for all of those shots and, the mean worked out to be .0057, the Standard Deviation worked out to .0002594 (rounded), and the spread was only .0008. If they exhibited significantly variable drag, the BC's would be less consistent. I'd attribute the differences seen to shapes and seams.

I can't do any quality accuracy or velocity testing (no indoor fields within 4hrs , nor do I have two optical chrono's) myself but, I'll bring it up with Bryce and Cockerpunk.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I brought it up with them already as I said, it's OK.

Well, all I can tell you is that I shot someone in front of 70 witnesses at 500', december 29th, by firing A SINGLE regular paintball at 270fps or I would be more impressed.
Did I mention I was wearing a santa suit? First time I've made a similar shot in a santa suit, though I've put out a LOT of folks who try to make that bridge when I'm in my normal paintball clothes.

I wouldn't have bothered you for an improvement that wasn't worth your time as a player.
As a scientist, you don't attract my support or interest very much, though your work seems very well done and thorough, no offense. I can already hit what I aim at, your equations offer me a much less reliable and accurate tool than my own experience.

As a fellow paintball player and MCBer I felt a call to help you hit more people since you seemed interested.

However there comes a point for each person who investigates these things, when a person says 'good enough!' and decides to spend their limited time and energy somewhere else.
I guess we're all at our destinations.

Happy Hunting!
Rob
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Let's just suppose for a moment that I could convince Bryce and Cockerpunk to do a honed barrel (presumably from you) test to determine if there is an increase in accuracy or range.

Would the following conditions meet your criteria for testing validity?
  • Test conducted indoors to remove influences of outdoor air currents
  • Marker (with your barrel) fixed to a stand that affords no movement over the shot string.
  • Optical chrono in front of the barrel for velocity measurement.
  • Recording impact locations on the ground (because you presumably don't believe that vertical impact heights correlate to more distant impact locations) and, firing velocity.
  • Using readily available mid-grade paint
  • In the same session, repeating the same test with a commercially available barrel of similar design.

Just what are your thoughts as to why the ballistic coefficients don't vary significantly over a 20 shot string?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:01 PM   #16 (permalink)
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You misunderstand me, sir. What I'm telling you is that if Cockerpunk, Bryce or you shoot even a few shots through a barrel I, or anyone else with a 1200LA hone, have honed, I won't have to ask you to do anything.
When I say the difference is immediately apparent, I mean it. You'll be doing it yourself and chuckling the whole time.
I'm pretty obsessive about not bragging. Robert Heinlein said anyone who talks about themselves walks a tightrope between false modesty and egotism and I agree.
So I hope you'll understand that I say this to convince you to try something.
I've played only using pistols for 27 years now. I prefer Open(Anymode/any ROF) Play at Hell Survivors. MCBers like TrueBlue, Deacon and Tinman are people who see me on the field and can corroborate or dispute what I say now.
I routinely shoot people at 150-250 ft. Not 12 year olds from down the street. I shot Bill Gardner(Then owner of Smart Parts and Captain of Smart Corps) at 150' with him 40' up a hill. 2 shot burst, in an SPPL regional finals game. With a flexhoned Zeus G2.. I hit that shot all the time. I mean routinely as in a few times a game.
I hit people on the big game fields a lot by finding openings in the overhead branches that lead to their position...

I play for the Rangers and I play for the Hell Survivors Mercenaries, The Mercs are a NonPlayerCharacter team that is hired by teams during big games, we break stalemates and take objectives but may not change a flag. In spite of only carrying 2 TiPXs, I run alongside the likes of Pete Utschig, Bob Long, Nick Slowiak, Sean Scott, Blue Hanse and carry my end of the stick. Because I can hit targets at greater distances, I play pistol at games like the Monster Game :



This is the invitation-only Mercenary team that invited me to join:

Global Conquest 2008 NATO Part 1 - YouTube

The team that 5 years ago swore they'd never have any joke players on their team. A joke player being anyone who's marker shot less than 15bps. They respect bodycount not BS, after a year on their team, I'll be taking runs out this year. With my pistols.

To put it simply, I can shoot at people from farther away than you can and hit them better as well. This is because it is easier to develop instincts OR equations with fewer variables or with any variable lessened in its effect.

I'm saying if you try one, it's what you will play with from then on. If it should also provide a new subject for an experiment so much the better!

I hit the shots I do, not because of elfin magic or because I'm anything more than a 47yr old with bad knees, but because of the barrels on my guns.

What's your favorite marker? I'll hook you up free of charge, you can PM your address. That's the thing about the hone, it doesn't matter what the barrels finish starts out like, I can put a job on any old tube.

Rob
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Did someone say elfin magic?

Seriously though I would like to see an empirical test agent smiths hone. What harm could it do.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:16 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My only question to AgentSmith is... How much material is the hone removing?

Ty
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
You misunderstand me, sir. What I'm telling you is that if Cockerpunk, Bryce or you shoot even a few shots through a barrel I, or anyone else with a 1200LA hone, have honed, I won't have to ask you to do anything....
Here's the thing- I don't rely on my perception of a paintball's trajectory alone, to tell me how how well they perform. The interaction between the human eye and brain is flexible at best and this is the primary reason why pitchers use their various pitches to confuse the batter and why new recipients of long range First Strike shots are surprised by the impact (after seeing the trajectory and thinking it would fall short ).

So, I asked two, very direct questions because if I don't rely on my unaided perception, how can I determine the actual performance in a controlled manner? I particularly, don't want to fall into a trap of coordinating a test, not finding any significant data, only to then have someone say "the test wasn't done right" or, finding something and someone else, doing the same test, come up with different results.
__________________
FN303SD Totmacher 13 | SP 'Woodstalker' Ion | 1989 Line SI Bushmaster SI Deluxe
First Strike Round Field Listing | External Ballistics, FSRs and PBs | My Feedback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:19 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Ah I understand now, we must establish the conditions under which my bluff is called so that I don't later complain my magic 'is SO magic'...

It's like we're communicating from different worlds. I offered you a free paintball barrel to check out. It's not a project that I am going to grade when you are done. Do whatever you want, check whatever you want to check and print whatever you want to print. I offered it to you for you to investigate, not to prove how cool I am. Hypotheses are disposable, as someone who claims to be of scientific bent, I attach no ego to them. The disproving of a hypothesis is the birth of a newer, more accurate hypothesis. I know not everybody looks at things the way I do.

...Fair enough. The criteria you set down is more than equitable and would produce a result that shows what I want you to see.
Just to spark your incredulity even further I suggest you also try paints of varying diameters through a 1200LA flexhoned barrel, it should show less variation in velocity among them than the commercially available barrel.

I don't rely on my perception alone either, I study and I work. I read Tom Kaye's work, I read CP and Bryce's work the day it was posted, just like I read yours. I did my own tests, under conditions you'd approve of.
I'm trying hard not to feel condescended to and failing. Pitchers? Really? Please.
My greatest hope was to mail you a barrel and have you do and say whatever the you want after that. I have no ego or selfesteem tied up in this. I'm not some internet wannabe hero, I'm a guy who thought he was trying to help someone and is now frankly wishing he hadn't. I offered and I will follow through.

Besides,
If you are able to reproduce my results, then I'm right.
If you are unable to reproduce my results, then I am magical with the powers of a superhero.
It's a win-win for me

It was furthest from my mind to put you out or inconvenience you by giving you a free barrel and even paying postage, believe me, I do apologize.

EDIT: Ty, check out the thread I found my old flex hone

Rob
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Last edited by agentSmith; 01-30-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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