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Old 03-12-2013, 07:24 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Any effect the apex may have on fsr is bad

Or do you mean data with an apex using normal paint?
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:51 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Thanks for pointing out the muddled expression. Yes, I was referring to apex on regular paint. And thinking of only backspin, like a good golf shot--no hook or slice.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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No i dont think anyone has ever applied any formulas to that. Were you looking for shot grouping distance or distance. Id say for grouping its pointless. They are terribly innacurate.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:43 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
Sorry to add confusion while waiting for the physics behind agentSmith's observations, but has anyone gathered data on the effect of the Apex barrel tip like what UV presented for FS. I thought I had run across such data a couple years back, but I can't seem to locate it.

Also, one question for agentSmith--what vertical angle do you need to achieve your long shots. And then to UV, does the angle correspond with drag, lift and drop estimates--does flex honing affect just consistency or does it add something else to the inner to outer ballistics computations?

And much thanks to you both for all the unselfish work!

Tom
Nobody has published data based on a dual chrono test on regular balls with backspin. If they did, I'd be able to calculate a BC (for a given click and velocity setting) but, my calculations beyond that would be pointless because once they achieve backspin, they generate lift. Gary Dyrkacz took a more fundamental approach to calculating paintball performance (Newtonian physics, and fluid dynamics) and, a generic smooth sphere (vice an imperfect sphere with a seam). His calculations hold fairly true to normal paintball ballistics and, I believe they hold as equally true for backspinning performance. His methods, data and calculator can be found here.

As for accuracy, Punkworks conducted an accuracy test (thread here).

I'm betting you're likely not going to find coherency between my data and, Agent Smith's angle and elevation. Earlier in the thread, he claimed to make an elimination at 500' which, there is simply no way for me to back that up if he's talking about firing across level ground, at any reasonable altitude, no significant wind, at any speed under 300FPS. Now, I can't prove this didn't happen but I know of no evidence to support such a claim. He offered an idea as to how this could happen (forward and rearward pushing vortices) but, that's about it.

TechPB Mike found the max range to be 305' (23' further than my calculations), but there was a breeze visible in the video that may have contributed. Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DXDm4LzuMY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:40 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I went off to find out what the airsofter teams are saying about the range of their sniper rifles. The claim is 6"-8" groups at 50 yards out of the box, and with tuning, similar groups at 100 yards. They chrono at up to 550 fps with .2g bb, but then actually shoot with bbs weighing .38g to .4g ( with reduced resultant fps ). So with airsoft being able to obtain such groups with light weight round balls using only backspin, I thought that the Apex might produce similar results, and perhaps even better given the heavier weight of paintballs. I had also heard that the Apex produced slightly better results than the Tippmann Flatline barrel, which was why I focused on Apex. I don't have the capability of performing tests, but thought that some of the others might have the ability to fill in this blank.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:30 AM   #46 (permalink)
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To my knowledge. I dont think airsofters limit fps across the board the way do. I think certain designated guns and roles are allowed to shoot as fast as the mechanism can. As for apex vs flatline. I dont have any data but ive always felt the flatline was better. Since its a gradual backspin and not basically a ramp at the end of the barrel.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:55 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
I went off to find out what the airsofter teams are saying about the range of their sniper rifles. The claim is 6"-8" groups at 50 yards out of the box, and with tuning, similar groups at 100 yards. They chrono at up to 550 fps with .2g bb, but then actually shoot with bbs weighing .38g to .4g ( with reduced resultant fps ). So with airsoft being able to obtain such groups with light weight round balls using only backspin, I thought that the Apex might produce similar results, and perhaps even better given the heavier weight of paintballs. I had also heard that the Apex produced slightly better results than the Tippmann Flatline barrel, which was why I focused on Apex. I don't have the capability of performing tests, but thought that some of the others might have the ability to fill in this blank.
Airsoft pellets are light weight but, it's important to remember that they are much smaller than a paintball and therefore have reduced drag. Precise weight and diameter measurements (thousandths of an inch and, weight in grains), combined with dual chrono data and, we would know just how well they perform compared to a paintball. If the evolution of the paintball community serves as an example of human behavior, I would strongly suggest one to take claims in the airsoft community with a grain of salt unless they have data to back them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keebler View Post
To my knowledge. I dont think airsofters limit fps across the board the way do. I think certain designated guns and roles are allowed to shoot as fast as the mechanism can. As for apex vs flatline. I dont have any data but ive always felt the flatline was better. Since its a gradual backspin and not basically a ramp at the end of the barrel.
I don't know if the apex has a greater range than the flatline. Lots of folks claim that to be the case but, I wouldn't know for sure. TechPB Mike, in that same video I mentioned earlier, found that the apex out distanced the flatline by 36ft but, the flatline was 15FPS slower at the chrono. As far as round performance, I'm fairly confident that Tippmann tested multiple variations of backspin. What we don't know is if he sought all out range or, if he took the reduced likelihood of a break at range into consideration.

The nicest thing about the flatline is that you don't need to angle up to compensate for the 'kick down' that the apex imparts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:33 PM   #48 (permalink)
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UV, thank you for posting this ballistic data. I am looking at building a custom sight for use with first strike rounds, and this data is exactly what I was looking for.

+1 for SCIENCE.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:10 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I'm glad to help. I'd be interested in seeing what you produce!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:46 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Has anyone tried using a bow style sliding pin set for any of the first strike guns? It would need to be modded a bit to fit but i think if a simple circle sight in the back and then a moveable pin set in the front that could go around the very end of the barrel. It would take sighting in each pin, but once set you could have 3-5 distances marked out.
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