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Old 03-05-2014, 12:17 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Hey matt! I do the same thing! I use a modified salad spinner to spin my rounds!! Under $15 at walmart
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:30 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I was thinking the same thing about the sudden impact on the paint causing it fling from the nose to back of the round. This is something that could be looked at by just picking up a few rounds that didn't break after they were spun down and opening them. But again it's all about consistency so I guess even if it does fling to the back of the round, as long as it does it the same way each time, it's something I can adjust with my scope if needed.

I'll make a point of testing the nose up/nose down spin down theory the next time I go out to the gun range. I'll see about getting some pictures/video of fresh FS vs spun down nose down vs spun down nose up. Dunno when I'm going to be do going out there next to do that though.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:16 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually, I see the 'natural' movement of paint in the opposite. When you fire the round, the 'G-forces' (which are incredibly high), are to the rear pulling the fill to the rear. When the round impacts, the 'g-forces' are forwards.

I have no doubt that pre-spinning rounds (or standing them on end for a period of time), does not harm and may even improve their accuracy. My only questions are 'how much of a benefit would be gained' and for 'how long will it persist after treatment'. I'm also wondering what assumptions on the fill conditions are folks basing this technique on?

For example, I believe that the fill of a First Strike round is not a homogonous fluid. It appears to have two major components, a thicker material and, an thinner oily portion. In some rounds, a small air bubble is present. I can shake a round very quickly to the point to where I cannot distinguish the two components, after a time t rest, the fill appears to separate.

All that being said, what do folks think is causing the rounds to be out of balance in flight? The air bubble? The the two portions of fill? both? I ask because, this can influence the 'how much' and 'how long' questions.

In my own experience, I know that if I pick a round out of a random box and spin it like a top on a glass table, it will spin better/longer on the second time around than the first.
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Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Sounds like something that might be very interesting to do a formal test on. Say, a standard 20 shot group using fresh spun ammo, for accuracy. And then a set of before and after pictures (under strong background light for the x-ray effect) for some ammo stored on it's side to simulated time spent in a magazine.

If the group improves accuracy relative to a fired control group, then we have an advantage to exploit.

If the paint slopes after being stored on it's side, we can calculate a rough rate of "symmetricallity" decay. Now that I think about it, 3-4 picture samples in that 24 hour time frame would be best. It's not much more difficult and it would shed more light on the time-decay relationship (linear, parabolic, etc).

Ill check and see if I have the extra rounds to do it, but even if I do, it'll be a couple weeks before I can come back with anything solid. We did our second round of testing yesterday and still have a third coming up later this week or early next week. We got some interesting data on the accuracy testing we did, and the dual chrono/drag curve test has been stopped by technical issues with the chronograph in both rounds of testing. So we're doing a third (and hopefully final) round to confirm the behaviors were seeing with accuracy, and now that we have the technical issues worked out, to get the dual chrono data.

After we get those two main priorities knocked out, I'll be able to devote studio time to the 121s and follow on FS questions (like the improvements made by pre-spinning the rounds).
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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For the Dual Chrono data was it problems with reading the first chrono? Often, the air blast coming out of a paintball gun can give the first chrono bad readings.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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No, my first chrono was solid. The second chrono would almost never read. We fired over 30 rounds through the downrange chrono and and only got 5 solid reads.

We can do the drag math with only 5, BUT like most folks in the FS community I've been spoiled on 20. And, in this case, I like the higher confidence. It isnt always necessary, but since a lot of folks have shown an interest, I want it to be there.

After a lot of messing around with chrono y and z axis positioning, I lay down a few feet in front of the second chrono and watched the rounds pass through the trap. The only time it read was when the round passed directly underneath the led light I had affixed to the skycreen. I figure the light was washing out the sensors's ability to detect peripheral passes.

Were gonna experiment with some construction lights I have lying around or, failing that, some flexible led strips to canvas the whole sensor range.

Once we get that worked out (and I'm confident we will) then well grab 2-4 hours of warehouse studio time and run through our list of experiments.

And I've bumped up the spun round time table for the test - I'm kinda excited for how much they could improve accuracy. My vision of paintball's future has a lot of shaped ammo in it. Like a lot. So anything that pushes the limits of the technology (and pushes that dream closer to reality) is gonna get me a little stoked. At least enough to throw money and time at it.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Not sure if this could be the issue but if your using a shooting chrono it could be the angle the first strike is passing through the second chrono
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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jjron99 can you put up a pic of what the salad spinner setup looks like? It seems like it might be a more "ready made" solution.

Also, I ran the test yesterday. I havent compiled the data yet, but when I do, I'll let you guys know.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm a little late with this tidbit, but I picked up some new first strikes and held them up to a strong light to get an idea of the characteristics of the fill in-shell. I was actually quite surprised how small the bubble was, which alleviated any concerns I had about the fill shifting around significantly during firing, but moreso I noticed the bubble at longest took a second or two to float to the top when I rotated the round.

So, in my opinion getting the rounds to settle nose-down isn't about the placement of the bubble - the medium is thin enough that it will go where it wants. As many of us suspect(and anecdotal evidence supports thus far), long-term storage nose down (or high-speed centrifuging) probably causes some of the denser components of the fill to seperate and settle into the tip. I will have to freeze and dissect some of these ones after they've had sufficient time to age and see if I can discern anything. I'm not familiar with the formula for first strike fill (and that's probably an industry secret for all I know), but we know to hit the 3gram weight goal, they've used heavier compounds. My bet, the pigment is where significant weight gains were found, and where in a typical paintball the liquid body and powdered pigment may have a more similar density and remain in suspension, the heavier pigment in first strikes slowly sinks.
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