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Old 04-29-2014, 10:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I sent them an email and in it, I included the following comments on their assertions:

Comments on Engler’s Arguments:
‘first strikes are not paintballs’
The sport/hobby coalesced around the best projectile at the time. If first strikes were around at the time, they would have been the projectile of choice. This is demonstrated by the repeated attempts within the industry to bring better performing projectiles to market (i.e. in the early days before .68 was standardized, and then the Macho Fire "Safety Paintball", the Perfect Circle paintball, and the "SniperBall". In the early days, the game wasn't even called “paintball”.
“if used at close range, potential to hurt someone.. cut someone, leave a nasty mark".
Long before first strikes came to market, players received minor lacerations, and significant bruising from paintballs fired at close range. First strikes can leave similar marks however, a thin layer of clothing (i.e. a jersey) negates the cutting effect.
Further, the shell is more fragile than regular paintballs (as evidenced by the far greater number of fragments relative to the paintball in the second part of Engler's video), so, it will transfer less of it's impact force into the target before spreading when compared to regular paintballs.

At point blank range out to about 25ft, there is very little difference between the velocities of the two projectiles. Therefore, the kinetic energy at impact at those distances will be very similar. However, since the first strike round will break easier, it will transfer less of it's impact into the target. The bottom line is that a first strike round is no more damaging at close range than a paintball.
"Velocity Differences"
Users should chrono with the paint they are shooting. This is accounted for in tournaments and there's no reason it can't be accounted for in a Scenario, or your everyday recball game. I'd gladly support registering and being identified on my scenario ID card as a first strike shooter, thereby requiring all of my chrono checks (to include spot checks) to be done with first strike rounds. At walk-on games, I always notify the refs that I’m shooting FS rounds (even after I've received permission from the owner/manager).
Comments on Todd's arguments:
‘They’re not biodegradable’
Biodegradability- Assuming that Hydrotec was honest about their rounds being fragile, I'd be happy with FS shells based on the corn-based polymer used by Hydrotec.
“they chrono higher”
- see above comments to Engler’s video.
“they should not be used against noobies or renters”:
I have used them on walk-on days, and neither I, nor the fields I've played have received any negative feedback. Generally when I talk to these folks between games, they think the rounds are very cool. And most don't even know I'm shooting something different until they see the gun, minus a hopper, and begin to ask me about my setup.
"you can't tell me that a first strike round is not: A. Harder than a regular paintball and does not cause more damage than a paintball”
First Strike rounds are more rigid than normal paint but, they are more fragile. Drop tests have shown them to break much more readily than tourney grade paint (see the Punkworks FS drop tests). The Mercer paintball video or this argument does not account for the fact that at fifty feet or greater, first strike rounds have retained their velocity much better than a normal paintball so, that at fifty feet, the recipient suffers something closer to a point blank shot (which is actually safe enough for every tournament series and most rec-ball fields that do not enforce a 20ft rule).
Comments on Zuby's arguments:
“First Strikes are not paintballs”
- see above comments on Engler’s Video
"...don't see the NFL coming out with the Bills...'
- The NFL is a competitive sport. The vast majority of paintball is not a competitive sport, it is a recreational sport (or hobby). In competitive sports, equipment is regulated in such a way to prevent one from having an unfair advantage over another. From competitive sport to competitive sport the degree of regulation varies. Recreational sport is simply recreational sport, as in many other recreational activities, you bring what you got.
'...point of using paintballs and more importantly field paint is that everyone is on the same playing field'
- Try telling that to the poor folks who get stuck with white box because they can't afford the 'premium' paint. In terms of reliability, consistency, fragility and even accuracy, white box paint is clearly not equal to the premium field paint.
'...if it's a regular walk on weekend, you gotta shoot the same speed (implied BPS)'
- Justifying the 'Semi-Auto only rule' as an equalizing factor is a fallacy. The "Semi-Auto Only" rule came into being purely as a result of field insurance requirements. When "Semi-Auto Only" hit the tournament scene, this started the BPS arms race that only recently has started to get scaled back. Manufacturers specifically implemented double finger triggers on electros to get around the 1shot/trigger pull requirement, and the specific prohibition on reactive triggers on mechanical guns.

This is blatantly obvious to those new players with their rental Tippmanns when they square off against those who walk triggers on their (insert tourney gun manufacturer) guns. This assumes that the average walk on field/chrono refs are effectively enforcing "semi-auto only" settings given the huge variations in gun software on the market- I’ve not yet met a chrono ref that could even recognize the set firing mode of a random electro without some time behind the trigger and that wouldn't necessarily reveal custom ramping activation patterns.

Your fields may be good enough to separate the rentals from those that own their own gear but these days, the vast majority are not. I personally have no problems with electros (my favorite field allows full auto and rents Tippmanns with RTs), I just don’t believe the Semi-Auto rule can be used as an example of ‘equipment equality’.
"Tippmanns with response triggers..."
- Sure, Response triggers can fire fast but, (insert electro of choice) can do it much better (read: fewer chops, they’re lighter, more efficient, and quieter).
‘I read into that meaning they’re not designed to be shot at people.’
“Recreational use” = for fun / entertainment. "Less Lethal Application" = for physical deterrence (i.e. riot control) or defense of one's self or property (i.e. Taser).

The statement clearly means: ‘Do not use these rounds for physical deterrence, or defense of one’s self or property.’ The reasoning- if you should use one, and find it didn’t work (i.e. you got physically attacked when you were trying to ward off an aggressor), it’s not Tiberius Arms’ fault, you should’ve used pepperballs, or FN303 rounds.
" made out of polystyrene, the same stuff as CD cases".
- Gross oversimplification and I'm sure Tom Kaye would agree. It is a variant of polystyrene that has been formulated and processed in such a way that it can handle forceful loading and firing but, still break on contact. The material was developed in support of Perfect Circle's (Tom Kaye's spin off company) attempt to bring a more spherical paintball to the paintball market (the cost/accuracy performance ratio caused it to fail). As for biodegradable, the polymer used is claimed to have additives that encourage photo-degradation but, bio and photo-degradation standards are very wide in regards to the timelines of breakdown. That being said, I'd welcome it if they broke down better provided that they performed (ballistically, and on impact) the same or better. Presently, I’ve not yet seen them fired in large enough quantities to constitute an environmental concern greater than 10rd tubes, broken pods, 12gram cylinders, plastic airsoft pellets, etc. Not to say they won’t get to that point but, it’s not there yet.
ASTM:
Tiberius claimed initially that they adhered to ASTM weight. I've been told (I'm not a member of the ASTM) that the ASTM definition (not the performance requirement) specifically identifies a "spherical projectile" which, an FS round is not. Tiberius Arms has claimed to be working with the ASTM to have the definition adjusted (and not the safety requirements).

Goggle Safety:
Hustle Paintball did a goggle test with FS rounds and the goggle came out fine. They posted the video on their channel.

Costs to play:
When I stopped using regular paint, I was playing at a field that allowed full auto- and I shot 1.5 cases of Marballizer. At the same paintball field, I last shot a bit more than 100rds of First Strike. At events that allow me to bring my own paint, I spend less. At scenarios that required Field Paint Only FS rounds, I've seen prices that reflect a markup even higher than the markup applied to regular paint so, they would be making more off of me on a 100rd case, than they were off the players buying a 2000rd case of regular paint. In either case, if one is going to be shooting them exclusively, they have to learn to play differently or, they’ll pay through the nose and/or fail.

Shot Capacity:
I personally do not like to see large capacity FS magazines (i.e. greater than 15-20) because money + large capacity + high ROFs will result in the current game of paintball (snapshooting, working angles, suppression) occurring over a longer distance.

Tactics:
If everyone is shooting the same projectile at the same FPS and BPS, then, the game has already evolved to it’s optimal potential: Those that snapshot, lane, move and communicate the best will win the engagement. The single projectile was the most significant reasoning for the non-existence of “paintball snipers”. I believe that varied rounds allow for a greater diversity in ‘optimal solutions’ and, tactics. For example, .50 is the absolute best close quarter projectile in that it can be carried in large capacities, shot very efficiently, and it doesn’t hurt the recipient as much. As an example of .50 used correctly in a Scenario, look at TechPB Mike’s usage of .50 at Living Legends. FS rounds are at the other end of the spectrum and, traditional paint is in the middle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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So it is at the same velocity of a normal paintball and it is less mass than standard 0.123 ounces or 3.5 grams; I don't understand the issue. What is the insurance stance on this projectile? They have been a around for over 5 years and I have yet heard of anyone being seriously hurt by first strikes.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCMachinist View Post
I have always envisioned FS as a game unto itself. Kind of like mag-feed only games.

Men only, no whiners allowed. It only takes 4 or 5 guys to have a game.

Video,video,video. There is nothing like seeing your guys action shots.

If we leave this to other people they will kill it.

Organize. Start a FB page or web site. Post up pics,videos,gear,ect.

I will give my support as a manufacture as long as it is organized and ran professionally.

Let's quit defending the use of FS and start promoting it.

It's not paintball. It's First Strike.

well, that's my .02c and my own opinion.
I don't necessarily agree with "first strike only' games. The main reason discussed in my above comment about "tactics". I don't want to see the same style of play that a single projectile forced on players.

I do believe in folks getting out there and being vocal about their use. Once I'm into my new house, making videos is something I hope to do a bit more of.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richter View Post
So it is at the same velocity of a normal paintball and it is less mass than standard 0.123 ounces or 3.5 grams; I don't understand the issue. What is the insurance stance on this projectile? They have been a around for over 5 years and I have yet heard of anyone being seriously hurt by first strikes.
Some folks are ignorant, that's really what it comes down to. Folks post videos or images showing the same type and degree of damage that paintball has /always/ had, and spreading fear.

As for the insurance, some insurance underwriters do not allow it. In part at least due to a technicality that the ASTM describes a paintball as a spherical projectile (as far as I've been told).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:56 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
I sent them an email and in it, I included the following comments on their assertions:

...snip...
This is the perfect response. Rationally addressing a fallacy is always the best way to educate the ignorant.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Great Post/email uv_halo!

As for ASTM, First Strike is not a spherical projectile, but meets every other requirement.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:20 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Great information. I can honestly say I have never shot a fsr and have no intention. That being said, I'm all for promoting change in the game and new and exciting technologies. Id have to say the only thing I hate about fs is that moment after you get hit, going where the **** did that come from?
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:43 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
You lost me at "Behind the Bunker."

That's a ****ing hack of a ****show.
My feelings exactly. Won't even bother. Im so sick of attempting to have an intelligent debate with someone who only barely manages to put up a facade of being fair, balanced and informed. Just because you speak articulately does not mean you any less ignorant or biased. It is an old trick. So instead ill just keep it short and sweet.... They're idiots
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Old 05-04-2014, 11:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio24dude View Post
You make an excellent point, and not only players viewpoints, but store/field owners as well.

Videos like this will be taken as fact. If only there was a campaign or group of people focused on awareness and factual information about First Strike. Group would focused on disproving false information and spreading awareness on our passion ways of playing paintball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordkyleofearth View Post
^^ But where could a person even find a group of people who perform scientific tests to actually understand the rounds? A group that shots cases of these things without injury.They'd need a celebrity too; maybe someone with an active YouTube channel full of first strike shooting.

Alas, such a group likely doesn't exist
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCMachinist View Post
I have always envisioned FS as a game unto itself. Kind of like mag-feed only games.

Men only, no whiners allowed. It only takes 4 or 5 guys to have a game.

Video,video,video. There is nothing like seeing your guys action shots.

If we leave this to other people they will kill it.

Organize. Start a FB page or web site. Post up pics,videos,gear,ect.

I will give my support as a manufacture as long as it is organized and ran professionally.

Let's quit defending the use of FS and start promoting it.

It's not paintball. It's First Strike.

[Whiskey Hammer: I tried bolding all of the above, but it looked ridiculous. Just know that I heartily agree.]

well, that's my .02c and my own opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real talk though, there needs to be a larger conversation about a shaped-ammo/limited-paint/magfed advocacy group. How many companies and players have thrown money into this ring? I'll bet it's enough to make an effective advocacy and lobbyist group. The things that could be accomplished...
  • straighten out Behind the Bunker
  • educate players
  • get inclusion (or, my beating heart be still, our own classification) in the ASTM
  • provide an additional avenue of exposure for our style of play and the companies/fields who support it
  • help direct the growth of our burgeoning sub-culture etc......
Basically: education, regulation, marketing, and culture. It's already being done here and on TechPB, whats the difficulty-to-return ratio of centralizing and exporting it the larger community? Were a motivated group - I bet it's very favorable.

P.S. tests later this week. Schools out, the girlfriend is out of town, and nearly all of my chronograph fixing and centrifuge making is complete. Give me drag data, or give me death!

Last edited by Whiskey Hammer; 05-04-2014 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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What a bunch of idiots, plain and simple pure ignorance. What a joke, bunch of idiots comparing the plastics, not being able to read a legal disclaimer saying it should be used as less than lethal... Wow.

Just for this I'm going to change my set-up to FSR, find where these guys play and just plink them from the back of the field all day till they learn what paintball is again.
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Last edited by Steed; 05-09-2014 at 10:37 AM.
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