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Old 05-17-2006, 01:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i wouldn't say that, Chavez has set up a great position for South America to set up it's own trading block, not to mention that they would (now) be entirely free of US control.

i have to say that the US is it's own worst enemy in the international relations game right now.
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:48 PM   #12 (permalink)
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If it was all simply not wanting to deal with the US, it would be simply written off.

It's the blatent political interference that Chavez is doing in the US that has gotten the .Gov all pissed off. The idea of a hardcore Marxist dictator sticking his nose into our government is gotten alot of people in high places really angry.

He's making the classic "Arab" mistake. He seems to think because he has all the oil, he can dictate terms. He forgets who has all the tanks, planes and death rays(and no, I'm not kidding about the death ray's, google ATL laser).


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Old 05-18-2006, 09:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
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sorry to say, but you are buying the propaganda.

One: Chavez got into office by free diplomatic election. He's a president, not a dictator.

Two: He's not interfering with US politics, he's not allowing the US and US policies to dictate how his country is run. big difference. (might i add that Canada would be better off with a guy like Chavez than our own Steven Harper)

Three: He's not making the 'Arab' mistake. his country has oil, he's selling it on the free market, then using the funds to make loans to other south american countries; freeing them from debt to the US.

and finally

Four:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTRN
He forgets who has all the tanks, planes and death rays(and no, I'm not kidding about the death ray's, google ATL laser).
wow... so you're saying that because the US has military might it should be able to dictate how other countries are run across the world. you know what that counds like? a tyrannical government.

world leaders like Hugo Chavez should be allowed to operate their countries within limits set by the UN without fear of another country invading.

some of the greatest wars in history were fought because one country thought they had the right to govern another. a very short list...

Norman Invasion (1066 AD): Norman forces invade the british isles in a bid to take over anglo-saxon controled countries.

Hundred Years War ( 1337AD-1453AD): English forces invade france and occupy, by the end of the war they have been kicked out of france

World Wars I&II: if you don't know by now i'm not explaining.


all of these are prime examples of one (or more) government(s) taking control of another country by force. all of this is unjustifiable. the US has been pissing the globe off recently with this type of behavior, as it stands several countries are ready to set up embargos against the US due to the militaristic foriegn policy that has been set up under your current president.
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Oh yes, Hugo Chavez, winner of the Moammar Ghadaffi humanitarian award (not kidding), and a overall swell guy who loves to quote Ghadaffi in his speaches just because he's another swell guy and supporter of democracy....
The guy is NOT a hero and definitely not the savior of South America.
I would however definitely have to agree with you though on US policy as of late, we've been tending to piss off every other country on the planet - but that does NOT mean that anyone who opposes us is automatically a hero though. Militaristic idiots come in all sizes and in both domestic and imported flavors....
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Walking_Target
sorry to say, but you are buying the propaganda.

One: Chavez got into office by free diplomatic election. He's a president, not a dictator.
wow.. you and Jimmy Carter believe that huh?

And this move is just peachy with the people down there as well?

Looks like it was all a nice plan to get in like most communist leaders.

And I dont see us invading anywhere to take over either.. there is a difference in taking over for land, resources or such, and taking out a dictator or other oppressive government.
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Old 05-18-2006, 10:01 AM   #17 (permalink)
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the US has been pissing the globe off recently with this type of behavior, as it stands several countries are ready to set up embargos against the US due to the militaristic foriegn policy that has been set up under your current president.
Try to back up your statements a little more please. You mention countries like Venezuela wanting to just operate legally under the UN, but then you toss this out. I would like to point out that complete cooperation with UN inspectors on the part of Saddam's government would have probably prevented the war that we're seeing today. Instead he was given an ultimatum, the UN passed a resolution against Iraq, and the US interpreted the chain of events as a cause of invasion.

Don't think for a minute that the President of the United States of America just decides "lets go to war with this place or that." If you do then you don't really have a realistic grasp of how the US executive branch operates.

anyway, i could go on but I don't want to get off topic too much, or risk turning this into another immigration thread.

So, back to the topic at hand, anyone know how much Venezuela is selling these for? and do they come with a free tank of fuel?
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Old 05-18-2006, 10:03 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok, back to topic for me, after posting my ammo comment.

I believe that other countries have the option (note, I didn't say obligation...just the ethical option) to step in, when another country is in the business of wholesale slaughter of it's own citizens, or has completely thumbed it's nose to all humanitarian issues. IE: Hitler's concentration camps of WW2; Saddam's death camps/prisons/gassing of the Kurds; Various conflicts within Africa involving tribal genocide. These are all conflicts that the U.S. and other countries have involved themselves with.

However, I completely disagree with the invasion of a country simply because of trade issues, or that "our idea is better". We've all read about the Crusades in history classes. What a bloomin' success they were, in the long run.

While I disagree with how the current U.S. campaign is being run, I don't believe we are simply in Iraq just because of trade or "our idea is better". The ideal goal would be to institute genuine Jeffersonian democracy...but that will never happen. And, I don't honestly think anyone in seats of authority truly expects it to. If we really thought that was the only way to go, and that we ought to be so hard nosed to eventually impose it at whatever cost, we would have to eventually invade Canada and England....both countries that have good, solid government systems that are similar in many ways to our own, but are not identical Democracies.

Likewise with Chavez and Venezuela. There are literally thousands upon thousands of unsolved murders, most likely at the hands of his government drones. And there are questions of Chavez' anti-semitic views. The trading of weapons or machinery is simply icing on the "why we don't like you" cake.
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Old 05-18-2006, 04:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Never claimed Chavez was a saint(far from it), no government is really truely good. i just have a serious problem with the way some governments handle foriegn policy. And before somebody starts swining the 'they have a secret police' stick, need i remind you guys of the NSA, CIA or canadian CSIS. we all have them some are just more active than others; chavez needs to give his some valium though. (i might add here that some of these 'secret police' services were implemented in co-operation with the US to curb drug exporting)

i would like to ask however, why did the US invade Iraq for the possibility of 'Posessing Weapons of Mass Destruction" whilst North Korea was sitting there saying "C'mon guys, we *have* WMDs... guys? Helllloooooo?"

the mind baffles
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Old 05-18-2006, 04:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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why did the US invade Iraq for the possibility of 'Posessing Weapons of Mass Destruction" whilst North Korea was sitting there saying "C'mon guys, we *have* WMDs... guys? Helllloooooo?"
diplomacy
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