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Old 03-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #1661 (permalink)
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Why? Just because the National Guard was a symbol of what was? If it has just been another clan of people would you feel the same? When society breaks down, so does right and wrong. The people of Woodbury may have been doing it for self preservation, nothing more. If it came down to killing someone and having a safe place for my family to live or watching my family get eaten by zombies, I know what choice I would make.
When you enter under a white flag and slaughter whoever has allowed you to enter under that flag I would have a problem with it regardless of the group you slaughtered.

How did killing them help in self preservation for the town as a whole? It assisted the Governor in keeping his position because of hte lack of competetition of competent leaders but the killing of potentially competent fighters and soldiers did not help the town.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:40 PM   #1662 (permalink)
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How did killing them help in self preservation for the town as a whole? It assisted the Governor in keeping his position because of hte lack of competetition of competent leaders but the killing of potentially competent fighters and soldiers did not help the town.
Thank you! My point exactly.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #1663 (permalink)
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When you enter under a white flag and slaughter whoever has allowed you to enter under that flag I would have a problem with it regardless of the group you slaughtered.

How did killing them help in self preservation for the town as a whole? It assisted the Governor in keeping his position because of hte lack of competetition of competent leaders but the killing of potentially competent fighters and soldiers did not help the town.
Maybe I missed some of the background on that. There were a few episodes that I watched, but may have missed something. Was the entire back story discussed? With that said, there are lots of situations in history of one group ousting and taking over lands previously controlled by others. Not exactly a new concept.... Survival of the fittest. I might have to go back and watch a few of the episodes where this is explained better.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:52 PM   #1664 (permalink)
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Maybe I missed some of the background on that. There were a few episodes that I watched, but may have missed something. Was the entire back story discussed? With that said, there are lots of situations in history of one group ousting and taking over lands previously controlled by others. Not exactly a new concept.... Survival of the fittest. I might have to go back and watch a few of the episodes where this is explained better.
A helicopter went down. They went to the helicopter and "rescued" the pilot who told them where the rest of his friends were. The Governor pulls up to this group of people hanging out a white flag. He gets out and starts talking wtih them and his men ambush and kill them all in order to take the equipment

I understand the survival of the fittest and all that but I have a problem with approaching someone under a flag of truce simply to set up the ambush.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:54 PM   #1665 (permalink)
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Maybe I missed some of the background on that. There were a few episodes that I watched, but may have missed something. Was the entire back story discussed? With that said, there are lots of situations in history of one group ousting and taking over lands previously controlled by others. Not exactly a new concept.... Survival of the fittest. I might have to go back and watch a few of the episodes where this is explained better.

With this being said, Even though gov showed a white flag and was one man the group he tricked could have easily put a bullet in his head second one of him showing up..

truth is it was a group looking for safe haven since their location fell to the walkers..

Gov killed them not due to survival but simply to take their weapons and to keep himself as the leader of woodbury..

If he wanted to survive (instead of having a following of scared sheep ) he would have invited them in ,given them safe haven (they have more then enough room for the people already of woodbury and any number seeking shelter there) and made them pull earn their keep.. they were healthy strong males with numerous skill sets that could have prooved beyond valuble to surviving..
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #1666 (permalink)
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With this being said, Even though gov showed a white flag and was one man the group he tricked could have easily put a bullet in his head second one of him showing up..

truth is it was a group looking for safe haven since their location fell to the walkers..

Gov killed them not due to survival but simply to take their weapons and to keep himself as the leader of woodbury..

If he wanted to survive (instead of having a following of scared sheep ) he would have invited them in ,given them safe haven (they have more then enough room for the people already of woodbury and any number seeking shelter there) and made them pull earn their keep.. they were healthy strong males with numerous skill sets that could have prooved beyond valuble to surviving..
The Gov could have been thinking a strong group of healthy males with those skill assets could take over woodberry if let in.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:08 PM   #1667 (permalink)
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Maybe I missed some of the background on that. There were a few episodes that I watched, but may have missed something. Was the entire back story discussed? With that said, there are lots of situations in history of one group ousting and taking over lands previously controlled by others. Not exactly a new concept.... Survival of the fittest. I might have to go back and watch a few of the episodes where this is explained better.
don't miss the part where the governor keeps the national guard helicopter pilot as a living trophy in the form of a severed head in a jar of nutrient water.

and again i disagree. society breaking down does not mean rules breaking down. i simply am not convinced society first creates people with rules; society is created by people with rules. chicken and egg. there are plenty of examples within the story itself showing people outside of society still retaining rules. tyrese, dale, hersel, that fat guy who shot carl, most of the time rick. the people you are referring to are merely the ones who only abide by the rules in fear of punishment by society, like shane. how many of them exist are up for debate but they don't make up the entire populace. there are people willing to follow rules even without the threat of punishment.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:20 PM   #1668 (permalink)
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The Gov could have been thinking a strong group of healthy males with those skill assets could take over woodberry if let in.
And wrestled control from him? The Governors actions were about keeping himself in power and making sure there were not threats to that power. They were not designed around any utilitarian goal.

For instance: allowing Michonne to leave and then sending people to kill her. This was about looking one way with the people and acting another.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:36 PM   #1669 (permalink)
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and again i disagree. society breaking down does not mean rules breaking down. i simply am not convinced society first creates people with rules; society is created by people with rules. chicken and egg. there are plenty of examples within the story itself showing people outside of society still retaining rules. tyrese, dale, hersel, that fat guy who shot carl, most of the time rick. the people you are referring to are merely the ones who only abide by the rules in fear of punishment by society, like shane. how many of them exist are up for debate but they don't make up the entire populace. there are people willing to follow rules even without the threat of punishment.
I disagree. When people are fighting for their very survival, there are no rules. Again, I feel that the hitchhiker scene displayed this perfectly. Basic humanity would have urged them to stop and pick up the hitchhiker, knowing that not doing so was essentially dooming him showed and utter disregard for anything but their own survival. Turning away Tyrese is another example. Was the governor wrong in killing the soldiers and taking their supplies? Maybe by a stable society governed by humans, but not animals fighting for their very survival. While letting the soldiers into thier town would have been the "right" thing to do in a civilized society, this is not a civilized society. Bringing in potential rivals for authority are as much a threat as bringing in outlaws. Just because they have uniforms on, doesnt make them any less dangerous. In fact, it may make them more so as they had the training to take over and some within the community may have seen them as authority figures in an attempt to hold on to the last shreds of civilization. Any good leader would have eliminated any threats to his authority just as any alpha male would eliminate anyone that came along looking to take over their clan. It's no different to an extent than Rick leaving Merle in the woods rather than bringing him back to the prison. Merle posed a perceived threat to the group and Ricks leadership, just as much as the soldiers posed a perceived threat to Woodbury and it's leadership.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:40 PM   #1670 (permalink)
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Not only did he not allow them in he actively sought them out in order to take what they had and killed them as the easiest way to do this.

Sorry. If humanity has to discard all morality in order to survive I would prefer it did not.

I am not defending all of Rick's actions either for the record.

Edit: That being said it is far different than leaving Merle, and his gear, alone in the woods. Merle had attacked members of the group. Nothing about the behavior of the soldiers indicated they were a danger.
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"It is not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters" Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant.

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