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Old 06-08-2006, 05:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Well I'm sorry you feel that way. But I feel that's a pretty close-minded crappy stand.. "well they are doing x anyways" Man what a load of bs. I'm expecting that to be followed up with "well then they have it coming to them"... and basically where do you then draw your line with that argument as a limit so that you aren't being hypicritical...

Look, saying they are having sex anyways so what's it matter if it's with some 40 year old schmuck (man or woman) or a fellow peer is some of the most ignorant callous bs ever. Sure they probably shouldn't be having sex as a teen...and that's why people want to push real sex education on youths in schools instead of saying "Oh let their parents teach them".... cause guess what..their parents hardly watch them as it is (and I'm not saying that is what happens in every home in America).. you've got the video game kids who use the "Well I was immersed in a game and didn't come out of it ever that's why I killed him" to the "Well my mom and dad let me wrestle with my brother so why was it any different to head drop my neighbor on concrete" to "well they did it in a movie".... if that crap is happening then it's pretty damn obvious that someone (parent, teacher, cop (cough), whomever) is obviously not taking the f'ng time needed to make it a point to raise these kids properly and point out to them at obvious important times "hey that's too much kill'em games for a while" "Hey don't rough house that much and if you are going to here's what I don't want you doing" "Now you see that (points at screen) that's dumb and will get you hurt..I don't care what they are doing on the screen"... it only takes a second to point that stuff out... if people weren't such damn a-holes with the attitude of "well I want them to be able to experience life" we wouldn't have as many problems with kids as we do.

There are activities when you let them have at it and you don't interfear and there is a time when you have to be up their asses all the time watching over them.

Hell we are always bitching about parents just going and buying their kid a paintball gun at wally world with out any knowledge of things.. and we've written guides on how parents should properly introduce their kids to paintball... guess what..that works for every thing else too!

Anyways... I've run out of steam on this and I don't even know if what I've written will make a difference... but believe me if and when I have children or am given the chance to positively influence kids (and I have done so in the past) I will take every opportunity to give them positive advice, critical advice, and a mental smack if needed to make them think about their actions and the consequences.

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Old 06-08-2006, 06:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Schmitti,
Okay, you drew a lot more out of what I said than what I wrote. Maybe to try to justify your position and call me “closed minded” and “ignorant”?

The FACT is that a teen having willing sex does NOT scar them for life. That is NOT saying I condone teens having sex. That is NOT saying to not hold adults who have sex with teens fully accountable and to the letter of the law. That is also NOT saying “they are going to do it, so it does not matter”.

What it is saying is that to claim they (teens) are “victims” because they had sex with someone over the age of 18 is total hogwash. And all the examples you used earlier could be applied to any age group and with or without sex being a part of the situation. It is the relationships (as well as other factors and actions) that cause the problems and mental scars, not the act of having sex. And I will also point out that without sex teens tend to be pretty messed up when it comes to relationships anyways. Lord how I know that having raised (and raising) my share of teens.

Also as someone who DOES have children, and HAS influenced young lives, I think I may actually have some insight into the matter. I don’t say this to be rude, but to point out that I am not simply reading a book or looking at the news… I live it. And knowing full well that teens have children every day and they are fathered by both other teens and young adults, I will not sit back and act like the “act” of sex is the real problem. And those problems happen no matter how old either party is.

THAT was my point. That a teen having sex with a 40 year old and having sex with another teen is identical in the ACT. And in many situations the relationship is also identical. And abuse as well as other factors happen among teens as well as with lopsided ages. This shows that when a teen chooses to have sex, they are not a victim… no matter if their partner was also a teen or they were over the age of 18.

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expecting that to be followed up with "well then they have it coming to them"...
In a way they DO. The same as if they chose to drink alcohol, smoke, drive fast, and all the other things they can CHOOSE to do. I raise my kids knowing full well about personal accountability and responsibility, and that starts from day one.

Again, with that said let me state again that I am against teens having sex PERIOD. I don’t think they are ready for the things that come with it. But that is far from saying that if they DO have sex it will emotionally scar them for life and they become a victim. They simply are not. And if they WERE, then a teen having sex with another teen would ALSO be a victim. In that cast there would be TWO victims. But how silly is that?

To be a victim it takes a lot more than simply having sex. It also takes more than what age the partners are as well.

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I will take every opportunity to give them positive advice, critical advice, and a mental smack if needed to make them think about their actions and the consequences.
And I DO exactly that. As a parent and adult in my community it is very important to educate, mentor, and even protect when needed, the youth. But that is far from saying that teens have no responsibility for their own actions or that if they CHOOSE to do wrong they are somehow a “victim” because they are a teen. I simply don’t buy that argument and I think it does a disservice to our young ones.

I am for holding all parities responsible for their parts in actions, not just who it is politically correct to. We are becoming a society of “Victims” where no one is responsible for their own actions, no matter the age.

I believe you may have misunderstood how I feel about things and what I actually wrote.
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:48 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Well dammit Sam then write what you mean.. I don't care if takes ten damn pages!

And yes I called you on the carpet there a little bit because I knew that that wasn't what you really felt (cause I knew you have kids and would felel strongly on this)

ANyways. as to the act... sure the act is the same whether it be with another teen, your hand or some one older... I don't have a problem with sex, and I agree with you in that teens probably shouldn't have sex for the plain fact that they (most of the time) don't know what the hell they are getting into What is not the same is what has led to the act.

You can not tell me that a 30 plus year old (hell 18+) year old does not have it on their mind that a younger (sub 18 year old) person will not be more vulnerable to them than say some one their own age..one of their peers.. they know that they are younger, more manipulative, more willing to try things that other older people might not because they are more naive... basically lets put it this way.. you don't let the neighbors older boy who's in college and has been around the block sit in a room alone with your daughter and a bottle of booze...

Now ok.. I know you're going to say, they have sex. Correct. It's still a prey driven crime! THe same as a mugging, a rape, a murder (yes you can argue against this with certain things... yes I am generalizing again)... they are all predetory in nature... that is why we call them sexual predetors! They are preying on some one more vulnerable than then...

ANyways, I'm not trying to argue.. hell I'm doing this more for the education of everyone here.. especially you horny young college boys... you go back to high school home coming and try to make it with a 16 year old and yes, you are a sexual predetor and there is a place for you, and it's not warm and comfortable.

ANyways.. again running out of steam and ding.. call of the oven, dinner's ready

Until Later!
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Well for my own two bent cents...On the victim angle, if a person is a willing perticipant and is NOT being pressured by a "Higher Authority" In other words "Screw me or Ill flunk you" then how are they a victim? I know of a few occasions where the Younger (victim) was the one who was the agresser.

Now from my own experiance I suffered more under teen pressure and some of the crap that went on in my home then I ever did having sex as a teen.

UI guess that I would be one ofthese victims seeing how as a teen I had more then a few shall we say encounters with ladiesof a older age group. 2 examples ....

example 1: when I was 13 I hooked up on more then one occasion with a 32 year old stripper who worked a couple of blocks from my house. If I was tramatised by this it was morefrom watching her inject her life away.

example 2: When I lived in germany at the age of 16 I hung out at the bars off post. I enjoyed the company of morethen one german lady over the age of 30 and more then 1 estranged militery wife.

Now I am NOT advocating teen sex or anyone having sex with minors. I am however saying that I suffered more from living in a broken home, peer pressure, and vareous other childhood problems then I did having sex WILLINGLY with girls my age and with the occasinal older woman.

Agian though this is only my opinion and a little bit of my personal experiances, take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 06-09-2006, 06:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Schmitti,
Thank you for your further thoughts. However in all fairness I have to point out that I DID write what I meant, you simply misrepresented my post and expanded on things I didn’t say, nor meant.

As for your other comments, we will have to agree to disagree. Yes, sex is often predatory in nature. But that goes for EVERY age. Ever been to a bar? And as pointed out by “M”, who the “predator” is may not always be who folks think it is. I have seen many young person be the predator, and of BOTH sexes. And then there are times where BOTH parties are equally willing and looking for it,

The simple truth is that humans are programmed to be sexual predators, and that applies to BOTH sexes. I have been picked up more than once by a young woman (when I was young) for the purpose of having sex. But that does not make every situation have to have a “victim”. There is only a victim if RAPE happens, or any unwanted sexual contact. And when humans go out to have sex with other humans they are not trying to take advantage of someone “more vulnerable” than themselves. They are trying to have sex with a willing participant. They are trying to “close the deal”. But the other party has as much power (in fact MORE) since they KNOW what is happening and choose to either do it or not. Free will my friend, free will. And personal responsibility.

And I have never seen a teenager who didn’t fully understand what was going on. I think you give them far less credit then they deserve. Heck, back 100 years ago once a girl was of age to have children she was married off. The age of “consent” is a societal thing, not a biological thing. I happen to agree with the current laws (except they should be made to be 18 IMHO… when you are living with Mommy and Daddy you should not do things Mommies and Daddies do), but I understand biology and the forces that drive our species.

I also understand you are trying to educate folks, but I strongly disagree with what you are “teaching”. It is akin to telling young kids their bodies are “dirty” and all thoughts about sex are “evil”. Neither is the case. And that can mess up a child as bad as being actually sexually abused.

There is often a middle ground, and that is where I try to stay. Be honest, be fair, and hold all parties accountable for their choices and actions. And as a parent I know full well that even if a child does NOT understand the full ramifications of their actions, you must hold them accountable for them. And one of those actions is sex.

Again, we are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here. But at least I think you understand that I am not saying it is all fine and well and everyone should do as they want. We just strongly disagree on the “victim” roll….. not the punishment one, nor what is right or wrong.
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Old 06-09-2006, 05:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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It seems odd to me that lately women have been doing the same thing they have spent years complaining about men doing. Twenty years ago women wondered why men threw away a job and relationship just to have sex, now they are doing it. Is it a social backlash type of thing or what?
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Old 06-10-2006, 01:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
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We recently had a teacher (female) and young student (male) situation here somewhat locally as well. Amazingly, she was in her mid to late 20s, married, and I promise you, she could've been a model - beautiful & long blonde hair. My jaw actually dropped when I saw the pictures of her. I believe she's in jail right now for this. Even though the boy was willing, he was a victim as he was underage and she used her position of authority to get to know him, and then in a more Bibical manner, if you know what I mean.

Schmitti, in one of your posts you said that parents should take more time to raise their children. I wholeheartedly agree, and I know that Sam does as well. Many of the parents of the last 10-20 years, in general, have allowed the kids to be raised by TV and video game systems. This isn't true of ALL or even most parents, but enough to cause a lot of problems. My wife has been a social worker in our town for 15+ years and has dealt with a lot of these kids, and it's sad. These kids, even though underage themselves, can be sexual predators themselves, abusive, disruptive, distainfuil of the law....just like the examples we see around us.

What's the cure for this? Get parents involved, don't make Mom be Mom and Dad (or Dad be Dad and Mom). Parents and all figures of autority NEED to be involved in kids' lives, providing direction, insight, and mentoring to them in hopes of straightening out what has already been messed up.

If you're going to have sex, be prepared for the consequences aka Baby or even a sexually transmitted disease (STD) or AIDS. Guys and gals over 18, if that gal/guy at the pool looks really good, check their ID to see their age. Nothing like spending your summer in jail for contributing to the delinquency (sp) of a minor, even if they were the ones to approach you in the first place.

One thing my Mom & Dad taught me in regards to dating is to never date someone seriously that you wouldn't consider marrying, as you never know who you're going to fall in love with. Going out to get to know each other is fine, but once you start getting serious and exclusively dating is when you need to look the situation over carefully. Now, I ignored this and got married in my mid 20s. It didn't last as we weren't equals in the marriage - she wanted me to dump all my friends, become who she wanted me to be, yada yada yada. Just goes to show that even when you're technically an adult you still make goofed up decisions on who you date. The second time around has been the one to last, just hit 11 years a few weeks ago and have three wonderful young kids to show for it. Thank You Lord!
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Old 06-12-2006, 06:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PJ
If you're going to have sex, be prepared for the consequences aka Baby or even a sexually transmitted disease (STD) or AIDS.
This is one of my biggest concerns about underage teens having sex with older people. Kids *should* be aware of the consequences and possible dangers, but the majority aren't. Also, in an intensely exciting situation, they are more likely to lack the discipline to insist on proper safety measures. M's example of a thirteen year old having sex with a
-out stripper is a good example. (Yes, I know all strippers don't have an STD, but the odds are higher than with the general population). Was M a victim? That's too metaphysical for me to answer, but I have no problem with prosecution of the stripper for statutory rape. A thirteen-year old or even a sixteen year most likely lacks the maturity and self-discipline of an older person. Not all people mature and develop at the same time/rate, so some teens will be more mature than some people 20+ years old. As a society, we have drawn a somewhat arbitrary line at 18. That can be changed if necessary, but until it is, it is a crime for someone older than 18 to have sex with someone under that age.

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