mcarterbrown.com  

General Chat MCB's Coffee House: Pull up a seat, and grab your favorite caffeinated beverage. Non-paintball related chat within.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-28-2012, 01:01 AM   #21 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
jellyghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: KCMO

I am convinced that he is legally required to pay you back. You contracted with him to sell you full ownership of the IPAD. He did not do that even if he intended too. It does not matter if he knew or did not know it was stolen. Not having full knowledge may get him out of criminal proceedings about being a fence for stolen goods, but it does not give him the right to take your money for nothing in return.
He can try to recover his losses in small claims court too.
Don't pay the $200 to have someone handle it. Small claims court is designed for non-lawyers, and in many areas, lawyers are illegal in small claims court. I live in Missouri. The small claims court here requests that you list the defendants employer. The court will actually doc his pay for you in Missouri. Even without knowing the employer, I think there is a good chance he wil pay. Definitely worth a $35 investment.
jellyghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 01:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011

AKA Fan
Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
RTP Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fridaddy View Post
Thats exactly how it could work if you do it right.
Unfortunately, unless "case law" shows otherwise, the way the writing on the wall shows, they can't do much more to him. If he does not pay up within a specified time, there isn't much that can be done but file additional paperwork, and he won't do any time for it. It isn't a misdemeanor, or a felony, here in Washington State.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maggot View Post
NoMercy, we've done business and I know you're a good guy. I'm sorry to hear you got screwed on this deal.

With that said, I'm up in the air on this one. I'm not convinced he is legally required to pay you back. I think it is as much the buyer's responsibility to determine if something is stolen, as it is the seller's. That's just the risk we take when we do business on Craigslist (and here, for that matter).
I would refund the money if I was him, I'm just not sure he has to. Does anyone have direct experience with this type of situation?
We have? Thanks.

He can't be legally, in terms of criminal law, held responsible to repay me the money that he took from me. It is a civil matter. I was told this numerous times by one of the two detectives that I spoke with, and once, maybe twice by the other detective. Unfortunately, the serial number, up until the last time that I checked, which was at 11:01 AM today, does not show up as a stolen iPad. I have checked the Apple site, as well as a few other sites out there for checking serial numbers of Mac's, iPod's, and iPad's. If it had come up as stolen at any point previous to both the buyer/seller and I getting phone calls from local law enforcement authorities, and it could be proved that we knew of it, then either or both of us could be arrested for possession of stolen property.

Simply put, this kid lied to me, telling me that he received the iPad as a present three months previous and that it had the two years of Apple care, when he bought it the day previous to our meeting, and it never had the additional Apple care. He further compounded it when I spoke on the phone with him this morning, and I asked him where the police department was that we were meeting up (The city actually has like four or five places that could be referred to as the police department, as well as a few substations), and he gave me an address that was at least a mile off, if not more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jellyghost View Post
I am convinced that he is legally required to pay you back. You contracted with him to sell you full ownership of the IPAD. He did not do that even if he intended too. It does not matter if he knew or did not know it was stolen. Not having full knowledge may get him out of criminal proceedings about being a fence for stolen goods, but it does not give him the right to take your money for nothing in return.
He can try to recover his losses in small claims court too.
Don't pay the $200 to have someone handle it. Small claims court is designed for non-lawyers, and in many areas, lawyers are illegal in small claims court. I live in Missouri. The small claims court here requests that you list the defendants employer. The court will actually doc his pay for you in Missouri. Even without knowing the employer, I think there is a good chance he wil pay. Definitely worth a $35 investment.
Neither of us is looking at being charged with RCW 9A.56.170 (I believe that is the specific one that applies to us since the value of a new iPad, wifi only, 32 GB is under $750), since we didn't know that it was stolen until we got the phone calls yesterday. I believe that I have a slam dunk case in small claims court, as I have text messages between us, and he made sure that I knew how much he wanted for the iPad ($500), and it later turned out that the iPad was stolen. I turned in the iPad to law enforcement, no trying to hold onto it until I got my money back. So I am out of the money, and I honestly don't care that his Dad is celebrating his birthday tomorrow, and the kid used the money to get his Dad a birthday present. I am willing to work with the guy (I call him a kid, he is over 18, probably 21 at best), but I am just stubborn about wanting the money in one lump sum. I even made an offer to him, that since he seems to buy and sell iPads at least somewhat regularly, that instead of giving me the $500, he could replace the iPad with another one, at least 32 GB in size (Which he seems to only pay $350 for them), or 64 GB in size (Which he probably only pays $400 to $450 at most for)and not be out the full amount of money. I am probably going to use the service, simply because if he is going to push this, then I am going to make sure that he pays, and quite a bit more than he wants to. I will pay the $200, let the service take care of everything, show up, show my evidence to the judge, add in the $55 for the shield cover (I can get a copy of the receipt) and so bump the $500 that he owes me to $755. I don't want to be a total jerk, I just want my $500 all at once. But if he won't give me the $500 now, nor will he sign a contract that says that he has six months to give me the one lump sum payment, then I am going to be a jerk and push what I get from him for more.

No matter what LEO are saying to me, over and over, he isn't a victim in this. The only victims are the original owner of the iPad, and myself. This kid paid $350 to buy the iPad, but then sold it to me for $500. I don't care that he made money off of me, I have been there and done that with other stuff, but he isn't a victim considering that not only is not out his $350 that he paid for the iPad, but is plus $150 from what I paid him. Until such time as he pays me the $500, he is not out anything, and is therefore not a victim. Period.
No Mercy Ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 03:34 AM   #23 (permalink)
Its a sport of honor.
 
Fridaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bay Area

After spending five years as a Marshal of the Superior Court I learned one interesting thing.

When the Judge or Commissioner orders something, even in Limited Jurisdiction Civil, (AKA Small Claims) it is an order from the Court. If that order is not carried out it becomes “Contempt of Court,“ just like any other person not abiding by any order of a judge. And the plaintiff may file a motion to have the judgment revisited, and yes… criminal and further civil penalties may be imposed.

Something for all of us to remember, let the court system work for you.



Yes he may not be the vic, he is the facilitator of you being a vic. It’s the “too good to be true” factor on his part. And he lied to you about ownership. In my book that adds up to ‘he knew.’ Maybe I am jaded from all the long years as a LEO but it smells fishy.
__________________
Colonel-in-Chief www.teamlockdown.com

Deputy Sheriff/Death Investigator.
My day begins when yours ends.
Fridaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 04:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
Sic Itur Ad Astra
 
Falcon16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: St. Catharines Ontario Canada
Send a message via MSN to Falcon16 Send a message via Skype™ to Falcon16

CCM Fan
Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy Ever View Post
Stitch - You are fairly accurate with your timeline. Let me see if I can add to it, with specific details.

Saturday - Thief breaks into a home and steals at least one item from a home, that being an iPad.
Sunday - The Thief responds to a buyer/seller's CL ad to sell the iPad. A meeting between the thief and the buyer/seller is scheduled, and the buyer/seller has a proxy meet in his place. The proxy calls Apple, and the iPad is not yet determined to be stolen (Yet), so proxy pays thief $350 for the iPad. Proxy gives the iPad to the buyer/seller, who gets ready to list it on CL.

I have to speculate about this, as I am not totally sure about when this happened, but the Apple customer service folks call the owner of the iPad to ask about his recent call to Apple customer service. The owner has no knowledge about the call, so looks, can't find the iPad, and reports it stolen. This happens between Sunday night and Monday morning.

Monday - Both the owner and myself contact the buyer/seller about the iPad. The owner by email, me by text messages. At some point, the buyer/seller sends pictures of the iPad to the owner, which show the serial number, but before the owner can have the police get it, I purchase the iPad.
Tuesday - Nothing much happens as the police are doing their homework to figure out the buyer/seller, and the buyer/seller is ignoring my one text to him about my catching him in the lie.
Wednesday - Buyer/seller is contacted by the police, in turn let's them know that I now have possession of the iPad. The buyer/seller decides to go to a nearby police agency to talk with a detective, who actually reads him his Miranda Rights, and questions him. I am contacted by the same detective, who I arrange to meet up with, give him the iPad, and give him my statement.
Thursday - I met with the buyer/seller to to see about getting my money returned. The buyer/seller had $200, and no promise as to when he would give me the rest. I also came up with a simple contract, that gave him six months to replay me the $500, in one payment. I don't want to deal with a payment here, and a payment there thing, I just want all $500 at one time. He refused to sign the contract, but the officer that was present suggested that we wait a week, think things over, and see about meeting back up again .

Part of what really bugs me is that he lied repeatedly. He told me, in text message, that he had owned the iPad for three months, not 24 hours. When we were meeting in person, he claimed that he had received the iPad as a present, and finally decided to sell it. When I talked to him today, he told me that the police station that we were meeting at was at one location, and it turned out to be at a different location. I am okay with giving him a week, but I am still intent on getting one lump sum payment, not little payments here and there with no schedule.
So not only did he buy and sell stolen property but if he fed you a story that shows he KNEW something was up with it which means he could potentially be charged with receiving/selling stolen property not to mention if he's feeding potential buyers a story that he owned it for 3 months and it was a gift he finally decided to sell that could also be considered fraud.
__________________

Feedback +31/-0
Click here to email me
My youtube channel
My downsizing/cleaning house sale





Quote:
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Pump paintball is cheaper than any drug habit I've ever heard of.
Falcon16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 11:36 AM   #25 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011

AKA Fan
Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
RTP Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fridaddy View Post
After spending five years as a Marshal of the Superior Court I learned one interesting thing.

When the Judge or Commissioner orders something, even in Limited Jurisdiction Civil, (AKA Small Claims) it is an order from the Court. If that order is not carried out it becomes “Contempt of Court,“ just like any other person not abiding by any order of a judge. And the plaintiff may file a motion to have the judgment revisited, and yes… criminal and further civil penalties may be imposed.

Something for all of us to remember, let the court system work for you.



Yes he may not be the vic, he is the facilitator of you being a vic. It’s the “too good to be true” factor on his part. And he lied to you about ownership. In my book that adds up to ‘he knew.’ Maybe I am jaded from all the long years as a LEO but it smells fishy.
Unfortunately, it does not work that way here. Let us say that I do have a slam dunk case, and I win. The buyer/seller will have 30 days, or whatever the judge chooses to set as the time frame, to pay me. If he does not pay me, then I get to pay an additional $20, and have the "transcript of the judgment be entered into the civil docket of the court. At that time you may proceed with a method of collection such as garnishment of wages, bank accounts, and other monies of the defendant or an execution may be issued on cars, boats, or other personal property of the judgment debtor. Remember, the clerks cannot give you legal advice. You may need the assistance of an attorney or collection agency at this point. In the alternative, you may take your transcript of the judgment and file it in superior court for a fee of $20. Other fees may be required by the superior court clerk or county auditor. When this is done, it places a lien against all real estate in the name of the judgment debtor that is located in the county."

As to the too good to be true, it wasn't. The iPad3, or New iPad, was released back in March. The one that I bought was probably bought the day of release. So in my area, 16 GB Wi-Fi only versions tend to sell normally for $400-$450. The same model, but 32 GB, tends to sell for $500-$550, and the same, but with 64 GB of memory tend to sell for $600-$650. So the one that I was looking to get, selling for $500, with an additional $80 for a Griffin case isn't "too good to be true", but pretty much right on the money

Honestly, his lies are what is keeping me from thinking of him too much as a victim. Never mind the fact that for him to be a victim, he has to actually lose something, and until he repays me the money, he not only hasn't lost anything, but has profited. I am calling the original detective later today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon16 View Post
So not only did he buy and sell stolen property but if he fed you a story that shows he KNEW something was up with it which means he could potentially be charged with receiving/selling stolen property not to mention if he's feeding potential buyers a story that he owned it for 3 months and it was a gift he finally decided to sell that could also be considered fraud.
I get a degree of trying to pull a salesman move, but as I said, he still lied to me, and it really does bother me altogether.
No Mercy Ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » General » General Chat

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC