General

[spymongoose]

I agree Lrrpie-Ct, and I think thats where most start dissagreeing with me. By stepping onto the ice you agree to be a combatant, and you are expected to follow the "unwritten" code mentioned earlier... ie the fight doesnt start untill the gloves come off.

As for the other sports, you really kind of have to take a step back and examine the roots of that particular sport. I'll admit that some sports arent combat related. Golf was just an excuse to hit rocks around the scottish highlands. Baseball seems to be sport where fully grown men scratch themselves in public and spit... actually that sounds kind of fun, I may have to pick up that sport.

as for hockey, rugby, american football and "soccer"...

Originally Posted by Walking_Target

Hockey, Rugby, Football, American Football, Lacrosse and Objective Based Paintball are not fighting sports. The violence inherrent to those games is strategic to achieving a goal, not the point of a sport.

I dissagree. american football is simply a variation on the basic rugby principal. the "combat related" goal is to deny the other team access to the ball by blocking running. This is a simulation of the front line shield wall formed by Roman soldiers with the object of keeping your wall intact while your offecnce penetrated the other wall. This is actually more evident in american football, and less evident in soccer but the principal is the same. Hockey, like soccer, hides these early roots but at least hockey guys are wearing some of the most sophistacted armor modern sports allows. I actually blame the intensity of the violence on the amount of armor these guys wear... if they wore less armor, more pain would be felt and fights would stop a lot sooner.

[davidwirth]

yeah but just like fighting all those 5 y.o. you do everything to win? :-)

[spymongoose]

no, but as I recall those 5 year olds were just really short zombies who were trying to kill me. theres a difference between sports and fighting for your life... at least for now there is. I'm going to go watch "the running man" again, kinda relevent here...

[Christian Nelson]

I don't think there is ever a time where you "have" to fight in a game. White goalie wasn't getitng involved, til some chucklehead just decided to be a jerk.

I am kinda wondring how he got surprised so bad, it isn't like he didn't know the other goalie was aggitating to fight him, and couldn't see him coming. .. Weird.

[spymongoose]

That chucklehead had a code of honor to follow. All his teammates were involved in a fight, and peer pressure kept him from walking off the ice or simply staying put. He had to get involved because of the team (think gang) mentality. He needed the respect and comeraderie from his team and so he went and he got himself a piece of the action. He did violate the unspoken code when the other goalie did not recpricate, then further violated the code by hitting him when he was down. Thats really the only reason this got any attention, and why we are discussing it now. People outside the sport know this to be unsportsmanlike, people who had no idea about the code knew that he was breaking it.

Sure, there is no time nowadays where you should be expected to fight. However there are old sports where a different cultural expectation is still present. These shocking barbaric scenes will continue as long as the barbaric sport is played, as it is part of the culture of the game.

[idkfa]

It seems there is a huge difference in opinion between people that grew up playing hockey and people that have not. Those who have seem to separate the sport, the game, from society. You cannot do this. Despite any "unwritten rules" or any other such nonsense (remember, it is just a game), the sport is still governed by the laws of society. If you break them, such as assault (the goalie was not a consenting individual of that beating), you must be accountable.

[Christian Nelson]

That chucklehead had a code of honor to follow. All his teammates were involved in a fight, and peer pressure kept him from walking off the ice or simply staying put. He had to get involved because of the team (think gang) mentality. He needed the respect and comeraderie from his team and so he went and he got himself a piece of the action.

What I am saying is, I don't think this is a valid reasoning. I played, maybe not in an organized team, but I had plenty of Ice time with no refs, or anyhting. And yes, we got physical, but I never saw anyone "lose respect" from walking away from a fight, and I never saw any pressure, or expectation to fight.

Maybe that's what happens when you have a coach, and officials, and what not, but then maybe that would be a good reason to not have all that?

I swear more kids get hurt in organized sports than pick up games, just like I hear a whole lot less overshooting in "outlaw" games than organized ones..

I played tackle football with friends as a kid too, no pads. No one got any permanent injuries. Worst I saw was some broken fingers, and I broke a rib once.

Yet, almost every kid I knew who played basketball, or football on a team blew thier knees out.

Maybe it's the whole coaches, and driving kids to be killers, and win at all costs that the problem is?

I would never throw a punch at someone just because they were wearing a different colored shirt.

You make me mad enough to punch you, I'll throw down, and I garuntee, we won't be friends when we see each other next.

It takes me a long time to get that mad, but when I do, I don't take that lightly. I don't fight for fun, I don't think it is fun to hurt others.

If I am gonna fight, it's because I found no alternative.

Maybe that was why I hated jocks so much in school?

[Meph]

What was that goalie thinking? Roy's boy showed that he wanted to go down there and start a fight. Then when he finally makes his way down he's still just layin back arms stretched onto the net? That's like watching a guy slowly walk towards you with a knife yelling "I'm gonna stab you!" then when he finally gets close enough and does stab you you're both surprised and in a non-defensive stance.

That goalie saw what was going on. If he didn't want to fight he should've went over to his bench and chilled out there to enjoy the show.

It's hockey. As long as it involves the people on the ice then it's part of the code. Assault comes from people who jump off the bench to "join in" on the action. Though I think a different argument comes to mind that is a bigger conundrum. Do you stop throwing punches when they hit the ice and you've officially "won"?


As well we can't hear any audio. Who knows what he said on the ice, or earlier? It could simply be retaliation or provocation.

[Long Beard]

Originally Posted by idkfa

It seems there is a huge difference in opinion between people that grew up playing hockey and people that have not. Those who have seem to separate the sport, the game, from society. You cannot do this. Despite any "unwritten rules" or any other such nonsense (remember, it is just a game), the sport is still governed by the laws of society. If you break them, such as assault (the goalie was not a consenting individual of that beating), you must be accountable.

I hear what you're saying, but there are other problems. In normal society, I'm not able to tackle you if you have something I want (unless it's a KP). On the football field that's acceptable. In normal society, I can't slam you into the side of the building because you touched something that I perceive to be mine. In hockey that's part of the game.

Hockey is a contact sport. Fighting doesn't happen because you got checked. It often happens (are you ready for this...) as a way to keep the game safe. See you're flying around on these sharp skates on ice (which if you haven't noticed is slippery). You're going at breakneck speeds and people are crashing into you. The entire time you're doing this you're on the edge of destruction. Fights are often a way to break some of that tension that is constantly happening. It happens. Baseball and basketball are suppose to be non-contact sports. Hockey is a contact sport to the extreme. There is no possible way to remove fighting from hockey. Can they crack down on it? Sure. I don't see a day where it'll be eliminated.

Should they be held accountable for their actions yes. When they cross the line they most definitely should be held accountable. Roy clearly crossed the line. He should definitely be suspended. McSorley got what was coming to him. But to say that because you get in a fight on the ice, you're breaking societal normals, seems a bit ridiculous.

[davidwirth]

I think the slippery slope here in charging with assualt is where it will lead. do we want the cops on the side lines ready to arrest a player? Scenerios- Baseball wild pitch about hits a batter in the head (was it intentional?) batter goes after pitcher. Prove it was an accident. Football (American)-clipping is a type of assault, when a player throws a punch, he isn't charged with assault, he is thrown out of the game, he is fined by the NFL, the team usually fines him and I am sure he looses his salary for that game. What do you want? wrap everyone up in bubble wrap. On the hockey issue, the league needs to look at the footage and either kick the kid out for the rest of the season or even a couple of seasons and maybe depending on the dad's involvement suspend the coach for the same amount of time? sports need to be self governed on stuff like this just like with drug use. How much money did those old farts in DC waste on the baseball issue? Sports is a money maker and if the fans feel that something isn't right, they will go elsewhere. Lets look at NASCAR, I think NASCAR is making a big mistake in this so called "car of tomorrow" all the cars look alike now, you really can't tell the difference in body styles now fords are running chevy engines and vis versa. Also the fines for so called agressive driving, sorry, if I want that lane and you are in it, I am going to force you out either by nudging or getting up behind you getting you loose and putting you in the wall.