General

[Mar]

Well, since the average MCBer knows everything, and has an opinion about everything, I would like to elicit the interest you all have in debate and discussion to something near and dear to my heart: Hockey.

Here is a link to a youtube video. WARNING, Static, no sound...turn down your speakers.

YouTube - Sags vs Remparts brawl

This is a game between two junior teams, one of which is coached by none other than Hall of fame goaltender Patrick Roy, his son is of course the teams goaltender.

Now I agree that when you step onto the ice, you consent in someway to the possibility of injury, and maybe even a fight (usually something gentlemanly, where once someone is down the fight ends)

But where is the line?

Please watch the video, and pay attention to the goaltender fight, and let us know what you think: Is that just plain-ol'-hockey fun? Or was that boy, assaulted and beaten without cause or provocation? Is he eligible for a thorough beating just because he wearing skates? Do we not interven in the affairs of Canada's national pastime because we don't want to upset the herd?

[Drum]

I am not going to watch the video (I don't know how to turn off my speakers) but I can tell you what you most likely know already... under the law, one cannot consent to a beating.

Intentional conduct that has been identified as common enough to incure a penalty or other punishment can be a "part of the game" so-to-speak, but stepping over the line, especially in a hockey fight or boxing is probably a more difficult call to make on the face of it. That said, an assault is an assault and mutual combat is mutual combat.

It is like art or porn, you know it when you see it.

[HurtCow]

Wow, that's quite the brawl. The goalie was just hangin out watching the fight, and the dude just skates up and starts wailing on him. The refs have their hands full trying to control everybody. Yeah the players should be sidelined/fined/punished/whatever.

Oh yeah, what kind of team name is 'Sags' anyway?

[Eli]

I know fighting is an integral and sometimes necessary part of hockey culture; but damn, Roy's boy took it too far. There's no audio, so I don't know what the two were saying to each other, but it doesn't look like the other kid wanted anything to do with what was going on.

Just my silly American $0.02

[davidwirth]

Originally Posted by Drum

I am not going to watch the video (I don't know how to turn off my speakers) but I can tell you what you most likely know already... under the law, one cannot consent to a beating.

Intentional conduct that has been identified as common enough to incure a penalty or other punishment can be a "part of the game" so-to-speak, but stepping over the line, especially in a hockey fight or boxing is probably a more difficult call to make on the face of it. That said, an assault is an assault and mutual combat is mutual combat.

It is like art or porn, you know it when you see it.

No but in the state of VA, a guy can be raped by a girl and a girl not charged with it. The way the law is written, the fact that he had a boner was his consent

[spymongoose]

I thought the whole point of hockey was fighting... Sports... most sports in general are barbaric contests of strenth and agility. You go to a boxing match expecting to see two guys pound eachother into hamburger. You go to a football game to watch guys shove each other around. Hockey is a organized fight on ice with a mild focus on ice skating. There is this thing with hockey minus the fighting, called the ice capades. Some sports are very physical... almost all have roots in ancient combat. Think the greeks threw shot puts and discus' for fun? Marathons, wrestling, hell even chess are all simply battle demostrations in a public display. Paintball is along those lines, a tactical simulation of modern combat on the rifleman level. Simply because we are a primarally "non-physical" (IE we dont slam our bodies against each other) doesnt make it any less combatitive. fights break out on paintball fields, in the pro leauges, because there is the very real stress and competitive spirit of simulated combat. Efforts to curb this combat simulation to reduce fights have involved "de-guning" our markers and taking it out of the woods. Now we look silly in brightly colored clothes and markers shooting it out among giant ballons... and we still have cheating, overshooting, and "bonus balling".

[Mar]

Originally Posted by spymongoose

I thought the whole point of hockey was fighting... Sports... most sports in general are barbaric contests of strenth and agility. You go to a boxing match expecting to see two guys pound eachother into hamburger. You go to a football game to watch guys shove each other around. Hockey is a organized fight on ice with a mild focus on ice skating. There is this thing with hockey minus the fighting, called the ice capades. Some sports are very physical... almost all have roots in ancient combat. Think the greeks threw shot puts and discus' for fun? Marathons, wrestling, hell even chess are all simply battle demostrations in a public display. Paintball is along those lines, a tactical simulation of modern combat on the rifleman level. Simply because we are a primarally "non-physical" (IE we dont slam our bodies against each other) doesnt make it any less combatitive. fights break out on paintball fields, in the pro leauges, because there is the very real stress and competitive spirit of simulated combat. Efforts to curb this combat simulation to reduce fights have involved "de-guning" our markers and taking it out of the woods. Now we look silly in brightly colored clothes and markers shooting it out among giant ballons... and we still have cheating, overshooting, and "bonus balling".

well, there are fights in hockey, and they do have a place, but they rarely, rarely look like this. There is usually a challenge made, the second party accepts or declines, the gloves come off (where accepted) and bam! You have a hockey fight. I have just recently observed the trend emerging of still hitting a guy that is down...I find this conduct 'unsportsmanlike'.

edit: Mongoose, check out Hockey Fights at hockeyfights.com for the latest and best fights, with detailed reviews ratings and analysis.

[Mayvik]

Old time hockey!!



Seriously though, aside from the goalie fight (and seriously, the guy in white was a dumbass for letting that guy skate all the way to him and beat him that hard...how much more telegraphed could the "I'm going to punch you in the head" have been??) that wasn't particularly brutal. There were only a few good punches getting thrown, mostly just grappling and shoving. However, I would like to point out that the guy who went after AngryGoalie2000 in the end is pretty stupid for trying to gut-punch a goalie...yeah..you can hit harder than a slapshot and get through that padding...sure...

[Heebs]

Personally I think the red goalie should be suspended for X games for that behavior. The other goalie wasn't even doing anything. Though the video did make it seem like the red goalie was being provoked.

I myself enjoy a good hockey fight now and then but that was just a beat down.

[stevedavidson]

classic, just classic.

As a former hockey goalie (and loud-mouthed prick of a paintball player), here's me flippin you the bird just for the heck of it and now, my take:

Goalies are usually the 'emotional center' of a hockey team. Besides blocking shots, their job is to fire their guys up and insult, degrade, demean, anger and generally make life miserable for the other team.

Most (good) goalies I know are very good armchair psychologists who can zero in on a soft center after about two seconds into the first period. (I usually picked one or two players on the other team and needled them all game long - performing illegal things upon their bodies when they were trying to screen me in my goal and yelling insults across the ice when they were down the other end. They NEVER heard the end of it when I made a particularly good save against them and nothing was out of bounds as far as I was concerned - them, their intelligence or lack thereof, their probable non-human origin, their lack of skill, whatever it took.)

The goalie for the red team was doing his job during the fight - tying up a ref and hurling insults at the other team and the crowd. His rush down the ice was more for show than anything else (notice it happened at the end of the fight, not at the beginning) and he would have continued to allow the ref to 'hold him back' if there was any doubt in his mind about being able to take the other goalie. As the goalie, he could NOT remain out of the fight physically since everyone else was involved, but he must have been pretty angry to begin with, since he could have gone into a clinch with an opponent and just danced around. Instead, I gather that he sensed that his team was going to get the short end of the stick (pun intended) and figured 'in for a penny, in for a pound'; now he can fire his team up with his 'victory' and everyone can have a good laugh watching the tape, while knowing that no matter what happens on the ice in the future, their guy is gonna be right in the thick of it.

I don't know what his stats are, but he just did wonders for his team's morale. Winning the fight on the ice is a pretty darned good substitute for winning the game on goals. (May not have won, but we sure showed those pansies...)

This may also have been a set-up for future matches - making the other team fear them physically (jeez, even the goalie got into it) - much like the Philly Flyers did to the entire league in the 70s. (Broad Street Bullies - beat the crap out of the other team and it doesn't matter if they are better skaters, better puck handlers or better shots...)

Now, as for whether this is a crime or sport? The argument is moot. Its HOCKEY. I only really played for two reasons (well, 3, it helped that the Flyers practice rink was in my hometown and I got to play pick-up games with and against them) first was - I was pretty good for a high schooler and second because it gave me a legal excuse to be involved with physical mayhem. If you want a 'sport' that's for people who are afraid to get physical, try curling.

There is an interesting take on this from the insurance side of things: companies offer separate programs for the refs, the players, the physical arena and for the crowd - and on the crowd side, its divided into coverage for the usual stuff and separate coverage for things involving the game getting into the stands.

This is at least a tacit recognition on the part of the insurers that what happens on the field of play is a different reality from the rest of the world.

I once had the pleasure of watching a bench-emptier between the NY Master Blasters and the PA All Americans team. Lots of threats about lawsuits were made, but nothing ever transpired.

You never see lawsuits over what happens in the bottom of the pile during a football game...

At least on the part of those who play professional sports, there seems to be an unspoken agreement that what happens on the field stays on the field, so, I'd have to say (after a long winded stretch of BS) that unless somebody pulls a knife or a gun, or drags the public into it, its part of the sport and shouldn't see the inside of a courtroom.