General

[pintbuster]

I am putting an offer on a house this weekend. It has enough land to plant a garden, keep rabbits and chickens, and put in some fruit trees. I am shooting for at least 1000 calories a day from my land. With all the square foot gardening books out now, I dont know why everyone doesn't do it.

[Azzy]

Well, this government went well, until socialism creeped in. It was a good balance of power, a teetering mix of anarchist freedom and sociable agreement on social control.

Those people who want to be in power have been using people like you for years to topple what is left of decent countries governments....

[WilD]

Originally Posted by Painthappy

Personally... I have no problem with it. I see it as nothing different than that Monk Mendel did on his own cross pollinating and creating hybrids to withstand harsher climates, more yield, etc.

begin offtopic

Take it from someone who worked for Pioneer/Dupont for several years, there is a difference in some cases. Mendel would have had a hard time getting bacteria and corn to "cross polinate". Hybrids are safe and good, but gene insertion from different corners of the Five Kingdoms worries me somewhat. I have seen BT corn up close and personal, it is a vile "plant".

end offtopic

[Schmitti]

Sustainable is the buzz word... I see it every day with regards to water supplies in NY.

I used to see it a lot when doing land development work in PA... farmers were selling farms so that MacMansions could be plopped down on the farm land.

The whole idea of increasing crop yields has allowed for a reduction in farms and farm area and I seriously think this is coming back to bite us in the ***. Combine that with the increase in farm shares going to fuel (cough government subsidies cough.... the same happens with other crops.. fuel isn't the only blame but is now a major contributor).

Things to consider along with the farm/food issue...sustainable growth and urban sprawl. People do not need to live 20+ miles outside of a city and drive in to the city to work. But they do because they enjoy status of owning a home outside of a city... or they can't afford a home inside the city that they believe befits their status.

Take a look at every large city in the US and look at the increase in the size/area of the suburbs. Was there a need for the suburbs... in the 40's and 50's yes. Population growth was too quick for cities to handle and small homes were built instead of larger apt buildings..... that and the "American Dream" has always been for people to own their own home with a nice peice of grass to mow.

Where were these homes built (and where are they still for the most part built)... either in agriculture areas (former farms) or in wooded areas (wooded areas are also agricultural areas and if properly managed are renewable resources.... if they aren't turned into homes, roads, parking lots and malls).

Also, look at the increase in vehicular traffic... people have to move themselves , resources and goods farther than when we were living closer together in cities. THis causes and increase in expenditure of fuels (not only for travel and moving goods but also for building and maintaining roadways and infrastructure). And now we are having to find ways to support the fuel needs (biofuels/ethonal).

My part... my wife and I bought a house in the city so that we could walk to the store and main street and use the car less for little errands. I'm starting to take the bus to work which frees us from the need for two cars and using more than 40 gallons of fuel a week. I don't own a gas powered lawn mower as with my small chunk of property I get by fine with a reel mower. My gas trimmer is going to get sold as soon as I mulch out the fence edge. Inside we've replaced windows to make the house more heat efficient and I've switched bulbs. We currently have 122 sf of garden space for growing vegetables. Last year we only had 50sf and we were able to get enough peas, lettuce and tomatoes to have salad and fresh vegetables from our garden a couple times a week for two months (min.). At the store we get recycled prodects or buy organic goods when it's not super cost prohibitive.

And job wise... well I've gotten out of the MacMansion business and now work for the state doing environmental work.

We as Americans have destroyed a HUGE chunk of our agricultural resources in order to support the American Dream.... and now it is coming back to bite us in the ***. But if people make changes in their lives and moving forward things are planned better, things can change for the better. This is not a political statement. It is purely a scientific statement.

E

[Painthappy]

Re: WilD

No.. You are correct. The limits of science gets pushed into what some would consider evil, just to find the limits. Much good will come out of it, but there will be some bad to go along as those limits get pushed into finding out what they can do.

[incynr8]

I'd like a pound of carp-tateos and a bushel of corn-o-pig please to feed my buffa-cows.

[incynr8]

Originally Posted by splattttttt

I don't often say this, or use this phrase lightly... But there will be a revolution. It's gonna suck bad. But in the end, governments will crumble.
Hopefully they will be replaced by a more humane ideology? But some how I doubt it.
It happened long ago. Way before modern times.
It will continue.

A kinder, gentler, machinegun hand..............

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by Painthappy

Ethanol is also a poor substitute. Ethanol in its purest form is ONLY E85 (or 85 octane). States that mandate that you use 10% in the fuel mix are screwing you... New Hampshire is one of the screwed up states right now. You take 93 Octane fuel and mix it with E85, well then, you no longer have 93 Octane now do you? You're paying more for less octane, and less mileage.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying ethanol is a viable solution. But there is a lot of confusion about it.

E85 is 85% ethanol 15% other
Ethanol's octane rating is 116, Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, adding some ethanol to gasoline should let you burn the gas more efficiently.
However it has a lower power density (I forgot how this is measured... bueler?) so you won't see as much milage from a tank of gas.

[incynr8]

110000 Btu’s per gallon butanol
84000 Btu ethanol
115000 Btu’s Gas

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by Schmitti

The whole idea of increasing crop yields has allowed for a reduction in farms and farm area and I seriously think this is coming back to bite us in the ***.

This specific issue is the main problem, though it is very complex.

For 50 years, there has been a very destruction "Farming cycle".
Basically, everyone knows farming is a hard business. The only way for a farmer to make more money is to plant more food.

So if a farmer has 1000 acres of corn, 2000 acres will double the profit? That business plan works until the market no longer needs more corn. That point hit about 50 years ago. Suddenly there was an excess of corn.

The excess drove corn prices down. Farmers had no alternative but to plant more corn, which drove prices down even further. The entire US agriculture was in complete disaster in the 1960s, so the government started massive substidies for farmers, so they can survive.

The cycle itself still continued. Farms got larger and larger. The prices of corn (and wheat) dropped even further. With corn so cheap, the market found other uses. Like replacing cane sugar with corn sugar. Hydrogenated corn oils. Corn flour, etc.

Politicians from corn states have seen these cycle out of control. By the 90s, farms across the midwest were on the verse of collapse. When the price of oil went up, they all pushed EXTREMELY HARD for special substidies for biofuels.

EVERYONE knew it would destroy the food market. It was not a secret. everyone also knew that corn biofuel was not viable. It takes more energy to make, then it gives. And there is not enough land. But the corrupt politicians from those states wanted the money, and stay in office.

I had hoped that this corn biofuel mess was just a stepping poing to getting biofuel from trees, and garbage waste. That seems far more workable. But its been 10 years, and the technology simply has not appeared.

nick