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Old 10-13-2006, 02:52 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yes i know that Ronin thats what i was trying to get across that even with "less leathal" things nothing is fool proof just like i could kill you with a spoon, was it made for that No but it could be leathal with the right amount of force.

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Old 10-13-2006, 02:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'd much rather take that than a Bullet.... its all relative...

I'm done now seriously
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ronin22K9 View Post
I'd much rather take that than a Bullet.... its all relative...

I'm done now seriously
A bullet would have been kinder to the girl in boston.. She bled to death in the street.

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It will eventually get to the point where you're living in the back of a '78 Oldsmobile with a trunk full of the finest paintball gear known to man.
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Old 10-13-2006, 04:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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A valid point. No amount of training will be able to account for everything.

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A bullet would have been kinder to the girl in boston.. She bled to death in the street.

-MR
Ironically bullets can cause the same kind of trauma.

Bottom line in that scenario is that the officer should have been trained and she should not have been there.

Last edited by Pickle; 10-31-2006 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 10-13-2006, 05:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I love that show, i think some of its a tad played out but its great entertainment nontheless.

Not throwing stone, just food for thought...

But its interesting how people are critisizing a mans bounty hunting tactics whos been doing it for 27 years and nobody in his crew has been hurt and no felons have been killed.

I agree some of the tactics look a bit flawed but it could just be how the shows edited. Plus, im not going to sit behind a computer and pretend i could do something that dangerous better than him.
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Old 10-13-2006, 05:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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... and she should not have been there.
That is what it boils down to.
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When I worked in the county prison, all my pals among the correctional officer staff were always talking about how they needed a large(r) caliber handgun in case they were confronted by someone on "PCP" or "Angel dust".

Now... all they talk about is zombies.
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Old 10-14-2006, 03:07 PM   #27 (permalink)
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That is what it boils down to.
Uhh, No it doesn't.

This is America, you are allowed to peacefully assemble. Just because someone else throws a rock at a police officer does not give that officer the right to fire blindly into a crowd.

Those FN's are MEAN. They are in no way similar to a Pepperball, and should never be fired at anyone, much less blindly into a crowd, unless the only other choice is firing your gun. Was that the officer's scenario? Not as far as I could tell.

Would that officer have fired if he was holding a rifle or a shotgun? No f'n way. His life was not in danger, and there were other officers on the scene with actual guns. He didn't fire in defense he fires in OFFENSE. That is difference. We're not talking about controlling an Inmate riot. 99% of the people there were not doing anything wrong. I have been in the wrong place at the wrong time before in a public place. It's not as easy as, "well Leave". It's hard to maneuver with that many people, and chances are most have no idea what's going on elsewhere.

In my own experience, I was at a concert where things got a bit out of hand (Nothing violent, but lots of pissed concert goers showing their displeasure by sitting in the reflecting pool.) I was exiting the venue heading down the stairs, by the time we hit the bottom of the stairs, my wife had been seperated from me (She was on the other side of the railing at the top of the stairs, but by the time we hit the bottom **** was hitting the fan. Staties were called in and showed up and I'm desperately trying to get over to where i last saw Karen (my wife). The troopers are telling everyone to leave, but doing nothing to remove the people from the pool. I'm standing on my tip-toes trying to see over the crowd, yelling "KAREN!", hoping I see Karen and Can grab her and leave. After about 10 seconds (midst second yell), I feel a shove from behind and I hit the ground, I roll over expecting to see some trashed A-Hole, but instead find an A-Hole with a gun and a badge. "GET OUT OF HERE!". There are hundreds of people in the pool, but he decides to assault the person standing there doing nothing except, looking freaked out and rather obviously trying to grab a loved one. There's more but it's irrelevent, I wish I had gotten more info from him so I could have persued a real complaint the next day, but I had a couple beers in me (not drunk) and was focused on finding Karen. Anyhow, I used to really respect our State Troopers, but I've realized their the just the same as most. They just happen to have a College degree also. It all changed in the time of going down ONE large set of stairs.

Pickle, you sound like a responsible & knowledgeable officer and I hope if I ever find myself in the wrong place at the wrong time, Your holding the Airgun not some twit. Unfortunately in NJ, that's all we have. TWITS.

-MR
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It will eventually get to the point where you're living in the back of a '78 Oldsmobile with a trunk full of the finest paintball gear known to man.
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Old 10-14-2006, 06:43 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Darkstar, your post covers a large area so let me see if I can cover it all.

FN's are mean and they are meant to be. They are not meant to politely move people along. Think of them as long range batons. They allow the officer to get the crowd moving or dispersing without putting the officer in as much danger. The most used option prior to this was giving officers hats and bats and many more people getting hurt. Trust me when I tell that using less lethal long range munitions is far better than duking it out with a crowd. That is adrenaline! I've done it, I know.

Saying that an officer should not use less lethal in a crowd situation where he would also not use his lethal options (guns, shotgun) is not a good comparison. I was not in Boston so I can't say. All I know I saw from the media reports and what I have heard through the LEO grapevine. Crowds at Fenway were getting or were already way out of hand. Once they were climbing the green monster most bets are off. If people are so trashed/pissed/whatever that they start vandalizing things in such a large way then the situation has already gone South. You state, "This is America, you are allowed to peacefully assemble. Just because someone else throws a rock at a police officer does not give that officer the right to fire blindly into a crowd." and I agree with you. However, we do not know that is what happened.

I have been in situations that easily could have been second guessed but weren't. Right now I am awaiting discipline because I did not wait for back-up during a large disturbance. Could I have been tactically more sound? Yeah, but it hardly warrants any severe discipline. The level of fear that you had for your wife is the same level of fear that those state troopers had for themselves and their peers. I wasn't there so I can't and won't second guess the trooper or you. There are so many variables that it is difficult to 2nd guess any of these situations.

As I understand it this gal had been at the Boston "celebration" for quite some time. I am not saying that she did anything wrong. But after it is evident that people around you are behaving in an illegal and dangerous manner it is incumbant upon you to leave; and you tried to do just that. By the accounts I have heard, the girl in Boston did not. Was the officer justified in shooting into the crowd? He obviously thought he was. As did his superiors who distributed the FN303 to him. But being justified and capable are two different things.

I am allowed to use force to effect the arrest or regain control of the situation. If kind words aren't doing the trick then I have to think of other options.

You state, "There are hundreds of people in the pool, but he decides to assault the person standing there doing nothing except, looking freaked out and rather obviously trying to grab a loved one." It may not have been so obvious to him. What were the state trooper's odds? I am not trying to defend the ST as much as I am asking you and everyone else to look at it from the cop's point of view. Yes, we are professionals and that is what kept me from popping off rounds during the immigration riots here is So Cal when I was in Santa Ana watching "peacefull protesters" drag my country's flag on the ground or fly it upside down. I saw my flag fly below the Mexican flag in an obvious show of disrespect. I saw graffiti that said, "Viva Mexico" and "F*&#K the U.S.". I had personal taunts and stones thrown in my direction. I stood my ground with my partners and we did nothing. Which was excrutiatingly painfull! Remember not all cops are twits. Not even the NJ ones.

Darkstar, this is a good conversation and I hope it continues this way. Thank you.

Last edited by Pickle; 10-31-2006 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 10-15-2006, 11:42 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Pickle thanks for the response. I saw it last night but didn't have time to properly read or respond.

In your opinion, Isn't it the LEO's job to contain rather than escalate the violence? In my incident, the most violent thing going on was what the trooper did. No one was throwing anything, No one was breaking anything. I'm sure there was something illegal about being in the pool but isn't there an inherent problem with trying to contain a crowd by Ramping up the violence? Shouldn't a response be relative to the original action?

edit: In the Boston case, shouldn't the response have been against the people climbing the wall? I do realize that neither of us were there and I absolutely respect anyone who straps on a Badge to serve and protect. I just no longer am naive enough to believe that all officers are there to protect my rights. Experience has shown me the other side of that coin on at least half a dozen experiences.

-MR
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It will eventually get to the point where you're living in the back of a '78 Oldsmobile with a trunk full of the finest paintball gear known to man.
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Old 10-15-2006, 02:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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In a broad manner yes. However, I am not going to be able to get people to do what I want by always being one level below them. Meaning, if they are yelling I can't whisper. If they have a gun my baton is not going to suffice. So in that case I should be escalating the violence. Should I be using violence when it is not necessary? No, but sometimes we as cops and humans aren't always going to know what the magic trigger will be to get one person to do what you want. Therefore you resort to what you know. Again, I am not saying what the trooper did was correct. I wasn't there so I don't know who, if anyone was correct.

As far as Boston, yes the response should have been against the people climbing the wall or against the people doing other illegal, violent things. We don't know what the victim was doing. She could have just been standing there and been an innocent victim so to speak. However, I am a firm beleiver that if an individual decides to stay in a violent disturbance like that then they take their own safety into their hands. She may have had a legal right to be there. She may have had good and sincere intentions to be there as well. But once the crowd started to get violent and unruly it was incumbant upon her to get out.
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