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Old 10-21-2006, 10:07 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Look, I'm not saying gun cause crimes. I'm trying to say that they're not the solution either.

Why do countries like Switserland where everybody has a gun have such low crime rates? Because there's alot more social security, better education, cheaper insurance, etc. Those are the things that mostly prevent crimes.
(Alos, people in Switserland don't have guns to protect themselves from criminals. They have them because every Swiss man is in the national defence forces. Actually shooting a gun without orders from a commander is illigal.)

Ofcource there's still a bunch of psycho serial killers, but they're an extreme minority and should really not be counted. It's also unlikely a gun will protect you from them (They mostly come to kill you without you expecting it, not to rob your house).

But I think we should stop now before we get in trouble with a mod.
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Old 10-21-2006, 01:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Why do countries like Switserland where everybody has a gun have such low crime rates? Because there's alot more social security, better education, cheaper insurance, etc
So then prey tell why is the gun the problem. Well its not, agian anti gun is just another case of "I dont want/need it, so no one else does either".

Our fore fathers were smart enough to relise that all should have the right to own and bear arms, but not all would. Solution, If you dont want/need a gun dont buy one, and leave the rest of us law abiding citizens alone. Adding more an more laws and sub laws creates more and more loophoiles, whiuch is why we are in such a srewed up place politicly right now as it is. Just for example congress is not in session full time, why becuase they were intended to be representatives of(equal to) the people, by (voted in) the people, and for the people, not make a career out of it. simply put You dont like guns, dont get one, but you have the right to if one day you should change your mind.
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Old 10-21-2006, 02:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The whole issue comes down to the law not controling people, so politicians try to control peoples stuff thinking that it will change the way people act. it stupid and flawed.
most weapons can sit loaded forever and never hurt anybody, it takes a person using a weapon to hurt somebody else.
to bring need into it is just stupid
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Old 10-21-2006, 02:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The whole issue comes down to the law not controling people, so politicians try to control peoples stuff thinking that it will change the way people act. it stupid and flawed.
Bulls eye
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Old 10-21-2006, 06:01 PM   #25 (permalink)
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About the guns stuff. When noone is allowd to have a gun, you don't have the desire to own one either.
That is not the point, an inanimate object can not hurt someone by itself, it requires a person to use it as a weapon. A weapon can be anything, a car, a brick even a pencil. A lot of indviduals here in the US like to hunt, target shoot, or even collect guns. The majority of gun owners are responsible with their firearms. It is easier to give up a right, than it is to get it back. Unfortuately prior to World War Two Hitler thought gun control was a great idea. He did not start the gun control idea, but just took advantage of it.
Here is a link on the subject.http://www.xmission.com/~ranthon/hitler-and-guns.htm As you read this article there is a photo of the Nazi parties antigun poster for Holland.
The argument for not needing something is a weak one at that. We all have things that we do not need. All of here have paintball equipment, which we do not need. A paintball gun could be used as a weapon, which is illegal but it sometimes is used in crimes. I have practiced martial arts for years and have knives and functional swords that I do not need, but I enjoy. None of them has ever been used in a crime. Instead of the politicians trying ban an inanimate object for political gain, it would be nice for a change if they passed laws on people control, meaning people had to take responsability for their own actions.
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November 05, 2002
Guns and crime in the Netherlands
Yesterday saw the publication of a report (PDF) by the Dutch Justice Department on guns and gun crime. (There's an English summary on page 173). It has been summarized in the newsmedia, with the key headlines being that it's easy for criminals to buy guns. For 250 euros you can get a basic gun. The most popular is the Browning Highpower while Glocks and Berettas are popular too. The more refined criminals pay 1500 euros for an honest-to-goodness Smith and Wesson. Machine guns start at 1900 euros, and hand grenades can be had for 7 euros a piece.

The total number of illegal firearms is estimated to be between 85,000 and 120,000 depending on various assumptions on circulation speed and extrapolations from the numbers of confiscated arms. It's also estimated that up to 20,000 firearms trade hands each year. Most weapons are single-use. The criminals get rid of the weapon once's it been fired. In some cases, they sell it on to clueless newbie criminals.

By European standards, it's easy to get a gun legally in the Netherlands. The requirements are that you have to have been a member of a shooting club for a year, be 18 years or older, prove that you can handle firearms safely, have enough shots to your name and you obviously can't have a criminal record. The actual procedure for buying a gun is arcane and requires approval from the shooting club and the police. You must keep the gun in a safe in your home (so it's no use for self-defense), you're only allowed to transport it to and from the shooting club, and the police will come inspect your home at least once a year to check on how you're storing the gun. There are about 80,000 people with a gun license in the Netherlands.

This report focuses almost exclusively on illegal gun ownership. It makes no mention of how many legal guns were used in committing crimes. The report does point out that going the legal route of obtaining a gun makes little sense for criminals, since it's long and cumbersome while they can get guns easily anyway in the illegal circuit. If there had been many legal guns used, I suspect it would have been mentioned.

The number of gun crimes has been relatively constant in the three years that the report covers (1998-2000). There have been 30 crimes with firearms committed per 100,000 inhabitants. There are huge regional variations. In Amsterdam the rate was 72 per 100,000 people, while in the rural provinces of Drenthe and Zeeland the rates were 14 and 13 respectively. The big cities have much higher crime rates than rural areas, so the higher incidence of gun crimes is no surprise.

How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.

This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer. But this is not the whole story. Does lower criminal gun ownership translate to lower crime rates overall? Looking at the FBI data in table 1 on page 64, the violent crime rate in the US was 504.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, while property crime ran at 3656.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.

More guns, less crime. What a surprise.
I picked this up on the web.
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:21 PM   #26 (permalink)
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*devil's advocate*
this seems mostly geared twards the super realistic airsoft rather then paintball here. that being said, most airsoft realistic guns have to have an orange barrel cap on them so they're not confused with real ones. doesn't really work because dumbasses pull em off or paint them black again. what really sucks in this is what happens to the cops. they get the worst end of both sides. you shoot a kid who's pointing a bb gun at you, you're a kid killer. never mind that more and more gangs are recruiting younger and younger kids to deal drugs for them and arming them with real guns. you don't shoot a kid and he shoots you with a real gun. the cops are blamed either way. this isn't a nefarious plot to break into everyone's homes and search their personal belongings to stop us from having paintball fun. it's to give cops an established LEGAL precidence to justify them shooting someone who may or may not have a real gun pointed at them. yeah the exact wording of the proposed law would make anyone owning them inside the city guilty of violating the law, i understand the concern here. i don't think, however, that it's going to be much of an issue other then having to go outside of the city to buy new ones. and i don't think this is going to do much to the paintball market either, as only the really milsimmed out paintball guns look like real firearms. oh yeah they all will look gun liked at midnight in a dark alley when pointed at a cop 15 feet away. but if you're doing that with your BE Blade, then you deserve to have a clip unloaded into you.

there's been tons of debate about firearms and paintball guns and every time it's been decided that a paintball gun is NOT a firearm. and again this is targeted at the realistic airsoft guns, most specifically the pistols that you'd have trouble differentiating from a real pistol at a glance. so dry firing that paintball gun isn't against the law. oh no doubt you'd prolly get in some trouble if the neighbors freak out at the sound and call the cops screaming that you're shooting a gun in your home...but that'd happen nearly anywhere, not just inside the city of chicago.

as for diving through chicago, it'll hardly be an issue for most. from almost everyone i've talked to, including chicago cops, if you follow a couple common sense rules (especially if you're only passing through) then you're likely ok. first have the paintball gun broken down so that the gun, barrel, hopper, and co2 tank aren't together (so basically how you should carry it anywhere) have it all in a case, preferably a hard case thats sealed/locked shut as opposed to stuffed in a duffle bag. and have it stored in your trunk, or lacking a trunk in an area of the car that you can't readily reach from the driver's seat. if you're pulled over, when you give the cop your license and insurance explain to him that you are transporting your paintball gear to *destination* and where it is, and would he like to inspect it. most times they'll say "no thats ok, just don't play with it inside the city, etc..." sometimes they'll be paintball players themselves and want to see it same as anyone on the field.
sure, some cops may freak out, but how's that different from any other ignorant cop anywhere else? a friend of mine got arrested for carrying an unstrung longbow in a case tucked under the back seat because it was a "readily accessable deadly weapon" though it was funny when she went to court over it and the judge asked the cop how her unstrung bow (with huge foam padded tips on the arrows for boffer fighting) inside her civic was supposed to be used as a weapon.

in the end i'm of the oppinion that we should be tougher on the criminals we DO catch and make the risks of carrying and shooting an illegal gun too high to risk for most, rather then making more and more laws that won't really be enforced either. i also think that in order to own most firearms you should be required to know how to use it. funny thing, every time i talk to my ultra right wing NRA "from my cold dead hand" buddies they freak out at that. but really, I think a lot of the anti-gun "liberal wackjobs" wouldn't have such an issue if part of the gun ownership requirement was RESPONSIBLE and trained gun ownership. ol jimbo out back shooting empty beer cans off his fence with an AR15 might not be as scary if you knew he had an expert marksmanship certificate. sure most NRA members ARE responsible owners who practice and train with all their guns, but thats usually pretty overshadowed by all the negative hype. just have a requirement that once a year, or once every couple years you take a basic marksmanship test. I had to take one twice a year when i did armed security in St. Louis and i'm ashamed to say i did better then 80% of my "classmates" having only fired a gun once before. it was so insanely easy i likely could have passed it asleep. but a simple thing like that could help make more of the public feel better about gun ownership, and those who do own them. and a public more at ease makes gun owners lives easier.
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Old 10-22-2006, 03:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by P4p3Rc1iP View Post
Look, I'm not saying gun cause crimes.
True. On this, we agree.

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Originally Posted by P4p3Rc1iP View Post
I'm trying to say that they're not the solution either.
Then why disallow them? And in fact, a gun was the solution for my client in his recent altercation.

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Originally Posted by P4p3Rc1iP View Post
Because there's alot more social security, better education, cheaper insurance, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by social security. It can't mean the social program called Social Security here in the States. Better education is available, but you know the old proverb, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". How does cheaper insurance have anything to do with keeping the crime rate, violent crime, gun ownership, etc. down? I think everyone except the insurance companies is for lower insurance rates, even the criminals.

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Old 10-22-2006, 08:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think we need to enforce the (many!) laws we have before we make new ones. And maybe sort out some of the less sensible ones in favor of better enforcement of the more practical ones.

More importantly (for me), I think everyone in the US should get a high school course in gun ownership. Safety, etiquette, storage, loading/unloading, and of course, shooting.

Then, give a test for a firearms license, just like a driver's license. If they pass, that means they can own or shoot a gun legally. They don't have to, sure, but it means that they can do it, just like they can drive a car. Then, if they need to have that right removed, it's for a concrete reason: cannot do it safely, don't understand what they have, felon, etc.

I lived in a small town, my property was sandwiched by 3 gun owners. My landlord, who owned a collection of WW2 firearms and only shot them at a range (despite owning enough land to shoot safely on), the other neighbor, who hunted--occasionally I'd hear the crack of his rifle, and the partying idiots that lived behind me. They'd shoot beer cans in their back yard, and the stray rounds made holes in my barbecue--sometimes while I was using it, because they never checked to see if they had a clear range.

It took an exorbitant amount of time (and bad will!) to get their guns away--by that point I had moved, anyway.

Personally, I don't own a firearm, but I have the right to. And I'd be willing to prove my ability/knowledge about them in order to keep that right...would you?

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Old 10-22-2006, 10:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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More importantly (for me), I think everyone in the US should get a high school course in gun ownership. Safety, etiquette, storage, loading/unloading, and of course, shooting.
Ditto, Back in middle school, we had the option of taking a 9 week version of the (2 day normally) hunters safety course insteed of PE class, I took that option, and paid IIRC 100 bucks to do so, it was worth it.

I however dont think that you should need a license, as with driving, becuase gun ownership is a right and driving is a privlage. However I do think that having a gun safty card (simmilar to the Colorado Hunters Safety card) is a good idea. I think that having the card should speed up the process of buying a gun, and get you a discount on the gun tax wise (basicly just add X amount to the existing sale tax and if you have the card you dont pay the X amount added to the existing tax)
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Old 10-22-2006, 11:29 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Ditto, Back in middle school, we had the option of taking a 9 week version of the (2 day normally) hunters safety course insteed of PE class, I took that option, and paid IIRC 100 bucks to do so, it was worth it.

I however dont think that you should need a license, as with driving, becuase gun ownership is a right and driving is a privlage. However I do think that having a gun safty card (simmilar to the Colorado Hunters Safety card) is a good idea. I think that having the card should speed up the process of buying a gun, and get you a discount on the gun tax wise (basicly just add X amount to the existing sale tax and if you have the card you dont pay the X amount added to the existing tax)
I agree on this as well, a highschool level safety/handling class is definitely a good idea and would go a long way in reducing accidents, but licensing goes too far. In Alaska a concealed carry permit does just what you are talking about, if you don't have one there is a mandatory 3 day waiting period and background check to buy a handgun, but if you have a permit you don't have the waiting period or background check. To get the carry permit you have to take a class that teaches you the legality of carrying a handgun and the ramifications of using it in defense and ends with a shooting qualification to show that you are competent with your gun.
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