Paintball

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by matteusz

Seems like Tom Kaye showed how lovely a good design can be 20 yrs ago and Kingman is determined to plug away making the same old thing newer and "better".

But isnt "making the same old thing newer" exactly what killed AGD?

As much as I liked the DESIGN of the blowforwards, it has never matched blowbacks in terms of speed, reliability, and usability.

The main problem with blowbacks is they usually required fairly high pressure to properly function (ie 500-800psi), otherwise they would have problems in cold weather, or during rapid fire.
If kingman has a blowback that runs well on 200psi then thats a good thing. It means that, when regulated, it could get hpa-like performance without the risks of blowing sensitive rams or noids.

Nick

[Cunha]

Cold weather problems in blowforwards only applies when using co2. The only real problem with AGD blowforwards is efficiency if you ask me, and tunability. Without the use of a pneumatic trigger your pretty much trapped with a stiff trigger pull.

[Railgun]

I think the reason so many folks think that blowbacks need high pressure is that so many come with no reg or any way to fit a reg so we just assume that ALL blowbacks need high pressure. BUt as this thread and many others have said this ain't the case.

I've got a piranha EVO here that came set up for 350 psi and it works superbly well at that pressure. In fact I don't doubt that I could lower it even more but then I'd have to mess about with springs to restore the ball velocity.

I like my blowbacks for the very reason they are looked down on.... their simplicity. Yes it's not flashy and they do have a bit of internal kick but I like the basics and the bit of kick let's me know I'm shooting something. And that just adds to my enjoyment of playing.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by matteusz

Is it still a blowback? Can't they get with the program and get to the blow forward era already. Seems like Tom Kaye showed how lovely a good design can be 20 yrs ago and Kingman is determined to plug away making the same old thing newer and "better".

If its not broken, why fix it? Blowbacks and blow forwards have around roughly the same amount of time. Both are great solid designs, each having strengths and weakness. Kingman is simply advancing the blowback design to keep up to the times where players want sleeker, faster models to complete with the Ions and Ego's on the field todays. And they do a fine job of it too. I haven't seen much progress from AGD in a long time.....

Back to subject on the VR series... I held a pair of VR2's this past weekend and can say that Kingman is more than capable of creating a nice blowback. Nice clean, smooth body, it balanced well and had one very nice trigger; I've felt a lot worse on some 'high' end electros. The clear anno was okay however; looked a little bit unfinished. I'm sure the other colored VR's are much nicer though. Eyes, LP operation, easy maintance and good looks to boot for under $250 (I'm Canadian), I could do that. Thumbs up Kingman!

[druid]

Originally Posted by pillage

The blowbacks are probably cheaper due to the huge amount being made. Spyders are generally pretty reliable if they are cleaned up after use. I think they get a bad rap from the masses, due to many of the users not taking proper care of them. If someone would keep it clean and use a little bit of lube from time to time, they would get better service from them. My brothers shop sells the hell out of Spyders, while the Tippmans just sit and collect dust. He hasn`t sold the first 98 even though his prices are comparable to Walmart. The Spyder refurbs get sold fast enough that he can`t keep them in stock. The new Spyders are selling well also. He sold three of them over the last two days.

Exactly true. As I said before, I've had several and they all performed adimrably within their own genre. It's likely your brother's having trouble moving the Tippmanns because there are very few performance mods for them. Spyders have, literally, tons of perf ups to make them run better. Not that it's a bad thing about Tippmanns...

Originally Posted by Cunha

Cold weather problems in blowforwards only applies when using co2.

Any Spyder run on air/N2 will need their velocities adjusted a little higher due to the lesser density of HPA over CO2. Other than that, they will run year-round if maintenence is kept up.

Originally Posted by Railgun

I think the reason so many folks think that blowbacks need high pressure is that so many come with no reg or any way to fit a reg so we just assume that ALL blowbacks need high pressure. BUt as this thread and many others have said this ain't the case.

I've got a piranha EVO here that came set up for 350 psi and it works superbly well at that pressure. In fact I don't doubt that I could lower it even more but then I'd have to mess about with springs to restore the ball velocity.

I like my blowbacks for the very reason they are looked down on.... their simplicity. Yes it's not flashy and they do have a bit of internal kick but I like the basics and the bit of kick let's me know I'm shooting something. And that just adds to my enjoyment of playing.

The "first runs" of Spyder markers like the Classic had the s/s line directly mounted into the bottom tube. It was near impossible to add a regulator in this manner. Then they created the next generation with gas-through front grips. The way the grips attached to the VA, you needed to replace the VA to attach a reg. When Kingman started their "vision-cocking" series of markers (Esprit, Imagine, E99s, et al) they changed the VA to accept screw-in regs and vertically mounted bottles. This allowed us to add decent regs to tune the markers better.

And yer right about the simplicity but add that it's got the potential to be the perfect 'sleeper.' Trick out an ESP-Framed Esprit with a TBoard, drill it for eyes, add covers, get harder/stronger detents, LP it and it's a veritable nightmare. I had my Esprit running at 200 psi for 280 fps and 27 bps . My Z-Egg couldn't keep up and had to get a Rip-driven Halo for it. Even the Halo had trouble at times but I sold the marker before the QLoader came out...let alone the VLocity so...yeah...peeps used to do the 'fingerpointing' thing at the field...until I opened her up on them and then they were like "WTF?!?"

[Schmitti]

Another pisser about the first run of spyders (fall 94/spring 95) was that they over drilled the holes in the bottom of the body for the frame screws and had to put in heli coils... bah garbage! Gun was great other than the fact that their were pieces of heli coil wire every where inside it.. and the helis coil eventually came out....

But other wise the spyder/piranha guns are great for the market as it is an affordable way to get into the sport... that being said people usually dump them quickly in the upgrade arms race.

Have to disagree about tipmans... there are upgrades... but more along the lines of milsim... the normal upgrades are a little limited and are pretty much tippman upgrades.. but there isn't much you need to do with them... they run smooth like sewing machines

E

[FeedTheDogg]

Only thing i have to say I always felt was really terrible about spyders is the off set bottomline screws and random hose threads, makes it a little more difficult to add drops and regs, they should just go with 1/8 threads and standard bottomline holes. Other then that, blowbacks are cool, pretty solid, fairly cheap, pretty reliable (and simple to fix)

[druid]

Originally Posted by Schmitti

Have to disagree about tipmans... there are upgrades... but more along the lines of milsim... the normal upgrades are a little limited and are pretty much tippman upgrades.. but there isn't much you need to do with them... they run smooth like sewing machines

E

Well, it's the reason I said (highlighted in red):

Originally Posted by druid

It's likely your brother's having trouble moving the Tippmanns because there are very few performance mods for them. Spyders have, literally, tons of perf ups to make them run better. Not that it's a bad thing about Tippmanns...

Sure there are tons of MilSim upgrades but that's more geared around aesthetics...not perprformance. When I say performance, I mean internal performance...low pressure kits, Performance tune-ups, that kind of thing. The do exist, they're just not as widely available as for Spyders/clones

Originally Posted by FeedTheDogg

Only thing i have to say I always felt was really terrible about spyders is the off set bottomline screws and random hose threads, makes it a little more difficult to add drops and regs, they should just go with 1/8 threads and standard bottomline holes. Other then that, blowbacks are cool, pretty solid, fairly cheap, pretty reliable (and simple to fix)

Yes, Spyder owners (including me) have been griping about that for years. As long as you understand that they use off-set holes and Metric-threaded lines and screws, you should be fine. If you need it, I can provide a huge list of sizes I have compiled...I'm sure someone can benefit from it. I'll even put it in a new post and the mods can do with it as they see fit.

[Chappy]

There are tons of performance mods for tippmans as well. Spring kits, powertubes, bolts, x-chambers and regs,low pressure kits, power feeds, cyclone feeds, rva's, rear cocking knobs, rocket cocks,triggers and e-grips, etc. Now whether these all DO anything or not is up for speculation, but they're available. What is available for a spyder that isn't available for a tippmann?

[druid]

Well Chappy, I must admit that because I have an old M98 (and there's not much I can do with it without serious body modifications), I haven't researched much because of it. I have no intentions of ever owning an A-5 and that keeps me from looking as well.

Here's the Screw list I promissed: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/s...7524#post77524