mcarterbrown.com  

MCB Reviews It MCB Reviews it! Have a review of a new gun, or old gun you just tried? New Mask or Gear? Let us know what you think.

View Poll Results: What look do you like better? With Extended Foregrip or without?
With 53 82.81%
Without 11 17.19%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-20-2009, 07:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
.
 
ironchef97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SD

RTP Fan
Quack Quack Duck review

***figured out a MUCH better way to feed balls***

Hi guys, I recently came across the chance to own this extremely rare and beautiful work of art (you may have noticed my 4 or 5 fire sales in regards to this haha). Bear with me, there are a TON of pictures, so 56k (if anyone is still using that) beware! I plan to do a complete disassembly and just show pictures of the parts and how everything fits together. If you haven't a clue what this is a review of...scroll down!

Pics with Killer Grips installed:












And......Here it is!!!!





Just kidding,











Without Lower extended pump handle...







Previous Pump Experience:
CCM S5
CCM S6
PPS Pyre
VSC Phantom
Duckslide Phantom
KP2
some snipers

Initial Impressions:
This particular duck was built in early 2000, and comes with a slam changer, and surprisingly, not too big of a bore (.689-.690 I believe) relative to what the old ducks used to have. This gun OOZES quality, it is craftsmanship at its finest. I honestly have never held something that as soon as it was in my hands, felt like it was a part of me. This is my first Carter gun, and is definitely not going to be my last =).

Dimensions: Big. I understand what DSA is saying when he says he feels like Arnold while using this gun. I would be intimidated playing against someone using a duck just because of looks, that's for sure!
Front of top tube to rear (not including feed tube): ~13"
Overall length (from front to back of feed tube): ~14.1"
Width of gun across pump handle: 1.18"
Barrel length (from the start of the bore):6.3"
Height of marker from top tube to bottom of frame: 5.8"
Width of grip frame without panels: 0.875", with panels, 1.25" with panels


Construction:
This gun is build extremely solid, there is quite a heft to it (less so with the extended foregrip removed), it weighs a little more than my S6 (entirely subjective, I didn't have a scale), but balances out quite nicely. The milling is absolutely top notch, I can see why ducks are so highly valued. Every duck is basically a hand milled, hand made, living work of art, and this one is no exception.

Sound: This barrel is unported, and is about...8" long. I have a KP2 and this thing is 2-3x louder than that, and that has no porting either! It sounds like a real gun almost, there is quite a satisfying BOOM everytime you shoot.


Trigger:

The trigger pull is AMAZING! If you've ever heard term smooth as butter, this is like...super super smoooth. The trigger pull is extremely smooth throughout the entire pull, and the weight is perfect! I wish I could show you guys exactly what it feels like, mine is nothing short of amazing. I now know why many people love sliders! If you've ever 'dry' pumped an S6 without the return spring (like once it's already cocked, and you just pump without the resistance from the spring, sear and hammer), it's comparable to that, but for a trigger. Also, the way it operates has a lot to do with why it is so smooth and light. All it's doing is releasing a latch that's holding the hammer forward, plus the latch is sprung really lightly. I'll post a better description later and pics.

I think I just said smooth like 10 times in that paragraph .

Pump Stroke/handle/mechanism:

The Pump on a duck is very unique, in that the whole body moves when you pull handle. Like a lot of others with ducks and reduxes have noted, it takes some getting used to at first. The stroke itself is smooth throughout the entire pull(this is my 2nd nelson valved gun, first was a phantom) but requires medium force. Compared to the CCM S6, it is just as smooth, but heavier (not in a negative way though). This is due to the return spring used (it is pretty stiff, as it has to return about a pound and a half of aluminum!). As far as loading a ball, you don't need to do this...

Quote:
I found that the most consistent feeding came from tipping the gun forward first (i.e. nose down) to put a ball directly above the breech, and then bringing it back up to horizontal (the way the feedtube area feeding into the breech is designed, the ball sits in a depressed area, so it wont just roll back into the feedtube) while tilting the gun to the left and pumping it at the same time. I know it sounds weird, and I might not be doing it the best way, but I didn't have any ball pinches that way (can any duck or redux users chimein on this? let me know if there's a better way!) Originally, I was tilting it to the left first, then tipping the gun nose down to load while pumping, I found I wouldn't be able to get the pump to return cause a 2nd ball was pinched between the feed hold and the body return.
Ok, I've now figured out that all you need to do is (if there isn't already a ball waiting above the breach) tilt the gun down first, then tilt it back ever so slightly, then pump. The balls in the feed tube will roll back, except the one located over the breech, it will stay there due to the depression it sits in. Then, as you pump, only that ball will be loaded, and the rest will be in the back of the feed tube. You don't even need to tilt the gun....A LOT easier and smoother than what I was doing before

Slam Changer:
I've heard a lot of things about these, how they're dangerous and can easily hurt you pretty badly if you're not careful. In my limited use of it so far, I have to agree, but it sure is a hell of a lot of fun to use! To be safe, I didn't open the slam door until I was pretty deep in the 12 gram (when it was making frog croaking noises). Also, the slam door uses a lot of friction, so it makes it harder to open once the latch is depressed. This was primarily because my grip screws were in tight enough to press on the door. Not sure if it was designed that way or I just screwed the screws in too tight. I've heard that you can safely bleed the air from a nelson by cocking it back and holding it there (makes sense, putting pressure on the power tube) if you have the time to do that in a game. I've come across a new issue with the slam changer though, sometimes when I slam the door shut on a 12 gram (empty, for testing purposes), it pops open after a dry fire or two. Or if I touch the changer button. Apparently the hooked part of it that is supposed to latch onto a bar inside the grip wasn't catching, because the nubbin was too far in. So you have to mess around with the nubbin's height until the slam door catches consistently. Something to watch out for if you get a slam changer in the future, because the cartridge can come flying out if the door isn't 100% secure.



Efficiency Test 1:

All the ?? mean that the X-radar handheld chrono didn't register a velocity

1. 287
2. 281
3. 271
4. double feed no reading
5. 275
6. dry fire roll out
7. ??
8. 274
9. 276
10. 271
11. 276
12. 279
13. 269
14. 272
15. 272
16. 270
17. 253
18. 236
19. 215
20. 206
21. ??
22. ??
23. ??
24. went like 15-20 feet
25. croaking like a frog
26. ""
figured it was safe to open slam door, depressed latch, small hiss of air, but 12gram didn't go flying out and break a window.

First Test Characteristics:

o Main yellow spring (the softest Nelson spring apparently), not sure what color the valve spring was. My velocity adjuster was as far out as possible, so these are the lowest FPS that I could achieve with the current springing.
o 57 degree F
o 72% humidity
o Paint to barrel match*
o Also, I am using the dreaded Crossman 12grams =). No problems with their size, all the ones I have fit, and seem to be filled consistently (took them out of the box at the store and tried to determine that they were roughly equal weights)

* I am personally a huge believer in underboring, but I don't have any larger paint at the moment. With underboring, I see myself getting 18-20 usable shots from the slam changer, in my current setup. Changing springs may increase efficiency, using a strong main spring and valve spring (can anyone with knowledge of nelson spring kits chime in on this?)?


Efficiency Test 2:

2nd Test Characteristics:

TBD


Conclusions thus far:
[I]Pros:
o Looks absolutely AMAZING.
o Feels absolutely AMAZING.
o Shoots absolutely AMAZING!!!
o Sounds highly intimidating!
Cons:
o Sounds like a cannon, wish there was porting sometimes.
o Would recommend a pin of some sort where the trigger return spring rests.
o Non removable Barrel
o No Barrel sizing, so if you are at a FP only field...you may be in trouble.
o I can dry fire this gun (i.e. no air, just cock and hammer release), and that brings me to a potential safety issue. The trigger pull is so light and smooth, occasionally when I'm just cocking the gun, I will touch the trigger, and it will fire. I think adjust it so there is a longer trigger pull.

Final thoughts for now (check back for updates, as I am constantly working on this review)

Love it.

Also...
I will be doing a Duckslide review sometime next week, and when I can finally get my hands on a Redux (I want a mini verison but mongo is swamped with redux orders!)...I'll do a comparison of the 3! I also want to do an efficiency comparison between Slam Changer, BBA and In handle...but I must acquire those setups first. I'm curious to see if the Carter quote (from his old website) of 45-50 shots off a 12 gram on BBA is realistically possible (and in what spring setups as well).
Anyways, hope you guys enjoy!

Last edited by ironchef97; 04-01-2009 at 08:21 PM.
ironchef97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 07:24 AM   #2 (permalink)
.
 
ironchef97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SD

RTP Fan
Disassembly:
The construction of this gun is actually absurdly simple. To remove the outer slide/pump handle/body, simply lift up this lever and wiggle it loose until it is completely out of the body. It is there to connect the body with the front part of the bolt. Then, unscrew the feed tube cap and slide the body forward to take it off (I think this is one difference that mongo's redux has, the feed tube is mounted 3/16" away from the body, so you don't have to take the feed off to remove the body).

Where the lever connects to.


Sliding the body off.


Naked Duck!


Right side. Notice the milling that mongo also incorporated into the redux, to lessen ball pinching.


A look inside the bore/breech


Close ups of the milling



Going down the rabbit hole


And here's what's left...as you can see, the bolt/hammer assembly is free floating when not in the tube.


Slide the bolt/hammer off and you're left with the Power tube and valve.


Duck Tail


One of 3 screws that holds the grip frame, rail, and valve end together


12 Gram and trigger location. One improvement that I think could be made is to have a small screw or pin in the back slot of the trigger where the spring rests to hold it in place. Occasionally, when I depress the trigger completely, the spring will come out of the slot and will get stuck, I put clear packaging tape over the slot at the back of where the spring rests so it wouldn't come out.




shows how much the 12 gram tip protrudes.


The piercing pin.


Trigger installed


Trigger top view


***From what I have seen of the inside of one or two other ducks, some have a long screw with the spring over it now instead of the setup I have. So you might want to request this if you do order a duck. Here is a pic of another trigger.


Trigger side view, there is only 1 adjusting screw (front), the back stop is unadjustable. As you can see, the design is so simple! No moving parts other than the trigger itself. Oo, maybe a magnetic return instead of a spring...

Another version with an adjustable back stop and spring retainer


Slam Changer latch


Slam Changer Assembly


Bottom of Door, the screw to the left holds the...pin/nubbin? that secures the 12gram in place. Big screw to the right moves with the latch, it is VERY secure.


12gram in grip, you can see the nubbin i'm talking about pressing the bottom of the 12 gram.


Bottom view


Parts laid out right side


Parts laid out left side


And that's pretty much it! A few more pics for you guys...also I'll be adding some more thoughts to the main body of the review later.

Top view


Right side w/o Extended Grip


Left side w/o Extended Grip


Business End


Sighting


And...the light at the end of the tunnel!


Thanks for reading!

Last edited by ironchef97; 03-23-2009 at 07:58 PM.
ironchef97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 07:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
Yngling Half troll
 
EDDAKA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: East Texas
Send a message via AIM to EDDAKA Send a message via MSN to EDDAKA

One thing that sucks about ducks is you HAVE to use large paint. Without the super large paint it's a museum piece
__________________
Feedback
EDDAKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 08:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
BEO MAFIA
 
rudz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SoCal Riverside County
Send a message via AIM to rudz

that thing looks amazing
__________________
SOMETIMES ITS GOOD TO BE EVIL

BEO MAFIA
rudz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 10:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
Traded guns for cameras
 
Frink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary AB Canada

Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchef97
I wish I could show you guys exactly what it feels like, mine is nothing short of amazing.
But you can! I'll PM you my shipping address

Great write up. I'm very jealous.

Any chance of getting the high res pictures of both sides emailed to me?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by RepomanGene View Post
****ing Ninja my ***...that **** is Black
Frink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 10:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
Formerly DeTrevni
 
Magoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Houston, Tejas

Am I losing my mind or is the tail "spike" crooked?

And what is it about the Duck design that makes the (sexy) little buggers so inefficient? I'm getting similar numbers out of my Redux. I guess it's just the curse we live with. Except DSA, dangit. He's gettin' like 30+ shots of his Dux. It may be the longer barrel.
__________________
Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?


Magoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 11:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
.
 
ironchef97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SD

RTP Fan
Thanks guys =).

Frink, what's your email address? you can PM me.


DeTrevni, Tail is curved, haha it's not a spike.
As far as efficiency, Paint size, and springing make a difference? What color springs are you using?
ironchef97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 12:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
Ornamental redneck
 
taco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lbc

CCM Fan
Brass N Wood Fan
Palmers Fan
beauty of a duck. i wanted carters personal duck but couldn't afford it but i'm happy with my redux. gonna get some field time next week i have the extended barrel too so i'll see about the efficiency. was this the one that was for sale on here i think by havoc666?
__________________




taco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 12:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
.
 
ironchef97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SD

RTP Fan
Yea Carter's duck looks amazing, I wish I could see it in person. It was the one for sale by havoc, I bargained with him ALOT (gave him my soul).
ironchef97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 01:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
DSA
One in the Pipe!
 
DSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lubbock TX
Send a message via Skype™ to DSA

Looks great amigo, One mean looking pistola. I love the dove tail. Tell us more about this find.

I hope this can put to rest the the idea that "ALL" Carter Markers get 45 plus shots off a 12 gram. People complain about all sorts of things these days they forget these markers are a Specialty markers and not ment to eek every single gm out of the twelvie.

Quote:
1. 287
2. 281
3. 271
4. double feed no reading
5. 275
6. dry fire roll out
7. ??
8. 274
9. 276
10. 271
11. 276
12.279
13.269
13.272
15.272
16. 270
17.253
18.236
I fully understand the Slammer is less efficient but you proved that if you do not prematurely open the door you will ring just about every possible shot out of it.



It sounds as if you are one happy camper,
Quote:
"I honestly have never held something that as soon as it was in my hands, felt like it was a part of me. "
Great review!


Quote:
I know it sounds weird, and I might not be doing it the best way, but I didn't have any ball pinches that way (can any duck or redux users chimein on this? let me know if there's a better way!) Originally, I was tilting it to the left first, then tipping the gun nose down to load while pumping, I found I wouldn't be able to get the pump to return cause a 2nd ball was pinched between the feed hold and the body return.
I actually tilt nose down and tilt marker to the RIGHT to avoid any pinching. RIGHT or LEFT works fine especially with the new speed feed milling mOngo is doing now, but right seems to work better for me.
__________________


My Feedback Redux Knowledge Base My Email Line SI Knowledge Base
Quote:
Originally Posted by russc View Post

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to shoot nothing.

Last edited by DSA; 03-20-2009 at 01:17 PM.
DSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » Paintball » MCB Reviews It

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC