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Old 02-08-2013, 09:34 AM   #21 (permalink)
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i mentioned it, in my opinion its a bad idea the majority of the time
I do see that you mentioned it, but it was in the context of one of those "new-model-every-year" type of companies. If it were something like a 68 Classic Automag, I'd recommend that over any unregulated blowback Tippmann or Tippmann clone any day of the week, and it can often be picked up for quite a bit cheaper.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #22 (permalink)
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so you would recommend something that would be extremely hard to find parts for and has been used for who knows how many years vs something with a warranty and parts everywhere?

forget that the mag is more reliable its a bad idea since if the player ever needs parts while at the field, their day of play is over as nobody is going to have them on hand and most likely they are going to have to wait until some show up on a BST so who knows when the next time they are going to play is
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If you mean "would I recommend a Classic 68 over a Tippman", then yeah, that's exactly what I'm advocating. But your assumptions are wrong. You do know that AGD is still in business and producing new markers and plenty of parts, right? And that a 'Mag uses common-sized o-rings available most anywhere? And that a parts kit, which contains enough spares for a complete rebuild or two, is pretty cheap and easy to keep on-hand? Also that they're super-simple to tech, and that there are TONS of really good online sources and people willing to help? Because with your response, it sounds like you don't know these things.

If you're scared of a catastrophic failure on your marker taking you out of the game for the day, then think about this: It's more likely that a catastrophic failure happens to a Tippmann than a 'Mag (thinking about that thin plastic powertube). If your Tippmann goes down and you have to send it to Ft. Wayne for warranty service, what are you going to be shooting in the meantime? You're going to be in the same boat, ultimately. Starting off with a used, higher-quality marker that is easier to tech is never a bad idea, especially if it's available at the same price or cheaper.



EDIT: Also, if you find out that you don't like the game and/or want to sell your gear for some reason (upgrade or whatever), you're going to get half of what you paid for the new Tippmann, but pretty much all your money back out of a used Mag.


EDIT2: Have to edit this again because it's sounding more like a rant and I don't mean for it to be that way. I like your guide - it's got a lot of useful information and I absolutely agree with your first premise that the first thing a new player should buy is a quality mask. I'm just trying to put more information out there and another recommendation.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:03 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trbo323 View Post
so you would recommend something that would be extremely hard to find parts for and has been used for who knows how many years vs something with a warranty and parts everywhere?

forget that the mag is more reliable its a bad idea since if the player ever needs parts while at the field, their day of play is over as nobody is going to have them on hand and most likely they are going to have to wait until some show up on a BST so who knows when the next time they are going to play is
Will second Justus here. While it is true that most commercial/rental fields, particularly with a pro shop, will have Tippy parts on hand vice 'mag parts, AGD is still in business, and as noted, hard part failure on an automag is going to be exceedingly rare. Even a long-used and abused automag will likely run fine and dandy for decades/centuries. Most failures will be in seals (still very rare), all of which are stupidly common sizes, readily available for literally pennies.

A brand new, full parts kit for an automag (seals, spring, detents, bumpers, etc.) runs in the neighborhood of $17. All said and done, this is no more expensive than a comparable kit for a Tippy.

Moreover, once the system is learned, a 'mag is quicker and simpler to service than a Tippy, and with a lot fewer tools.

If we are schooling new players, then part of that schooling should include basic marker maintenance and basic field prep, i.e., acquiring and bringing spare parts.

Besides, if a marker fails catastrophically in the field, then a warranty won't help for that day anyway, again as Justus noted.

And as he noted, this isn't a pile-on. It's just offering more detail to your helpful list. Many new players just want to jump in safely and with minimal fuss. Your list is a fine pointer in that regard. But some new players will want options, and may want to go for something off the beaten path. You are correct to say that in most cases some of the older stuff can be a danger. Only a fool or a sadist would recommend an autococker to a newbie, for instance. But a 'mag fits the bill perfectly.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you ever happen to need replacement seals for guns out of production, Short304 carries pretty much everything you could want. To sweeten the deal, he has rebuild kits that give you all the o-rings needed for a marker.

I have never owned a new marker since I started playing 6 years back. I've got friends that buy new gear all the time. Honestly, the only thing that I've seen cause marker failure is lack of knowledge. Sure o-rings shear and lube drys up, but the biggest killer for markers is the fact that many people who own them, have no idea how they work.

I think that you should include new markers as an option as in the time vs. money argument. Save time and loose cash to by something new, or save cash and spend time searching for a good used marker. For me, used markers are a great asset to the sport, in the same way that used cars are to life. And for a first car, many people don't want to drop the dosh on a new one.

Good job though, it takes time to compile a guide like this.
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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drys up, but the biggest killer for markers is the fact that many people who own them, have no idea how they work.
exactly, and this is my point. you guys need to stop thinking with your own brains that have been in paintball for countless years and know where to find parts and what to do when something going wrong, think like a new player, i have no idea how this thing works and no idea where to find parts, now put yourself at the field and having some issues with your marker

A) yes, hard parts failure is rare in a mag but if that does happen, new player is up a creek while at the field, nobody is going to have parts on hand

B) even if it is an o-ring failure, new player is not going to know that it is and while yes there probably will be o-rings on hand, the chances are slim that there will be anyone around with the knowlege to work on a mag

C)mags are expensive, and yes, they have good resale but getting into the sport on a budget is tough enough and not to mention on the fields of today even if a new player gets a mag they are going to feel outgunned by the slew of double finger e-triggers that are out there

D) yes, i agree on the field a warranty will do nothing but while they are learning how this marker works in the first year or so, should anything go wrong it is nice to know that it is covered and they do not have to spend any additional money

E) how many new players bring spare parts to the field? In the years i have been involved in the sport i can count on one hand the number of new players who come to the field and bring anything more than a few spare tank o-rings with them

if someone wants a mag down the road, I say go for it but as a new player getting into the sport, bad idea
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:05 PM   #27 (permalink)
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drys up, but the biggest killer for markers is the fact that many people who own them, have no idea how they work.
exactly, and this is my point. you guys need to stop thinking with your own brains that have been in paintball for countless years and know where to find parts and what to do when something going wrong, think like a new player, i have no idea how this thing works and no idea where to find parts, now put yourself at the field and having some issues with your marker

A) yes, hard parts failure is rare in a mag but if that does happen, new player is up a creek while at the field, nobody is going to have parts on hand

B) even if it is an o-ring failure, new player is not going to know that it is and while yes there probably will be o-rings on hand, the chances are slim that there will be anyone around with the knowlege to work on a mag

C)mags are expensive, and yes, they have good resale but getting into the sport on a budget is tough enough and not to mention on the fields of today even if a new player gets a mag they are going to feel outgunned by the slew of double finger e-triggers that are out there

D) yes, i agree on the field a warranty will do nothing but while they are learning how this marker works in the first year or so, should anything go wrong it is nice to know that it is covered and they do not have to spend any additional money

E) how many new players bring spare parts to the field? In the years i have been involved in the sport i can count on one hand the number of new players who come to the field and bring anything more than a few spare tank o-rings with them

if someone wants a mag down the road, I say go for it but as a new player getting into the sport, bad idea
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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you guys need to stop thinking with your own brains that have been in paintball for countless years and know where to find parts and what to do when something going wrong, think like a new player
Except you forget where you're posting this guide: MCB. If a new player is looking for advice and reading your guide here on MCB, then they already have all the resources they need at their fingertips and in front of their eyes. In fact, chances are they already know enough to do some simple tech work and replace the seals. If they don't know, they are already at the right place to ask.

As far as fixing a Mag goes, Tom Kaye's tech videos for the Classic 68 are on YouTube. Videos from the creator himself, with a complete breakdown and rebuild, and extensive troubleshooting guide (I think he covers what happens for all 3 things that could go wrong - powertube, on/off valve, and regulator). The only hard part on a 'Mag that can really fail is the regulator piston assembly, which needs replaced maybe once every two decades. If they don't already know it, or can't figure it out on their own, then a new player should be encouraged to learn this stuff about their marker in the first place. Anyone can go to Walmart or Dick's or Wherever and buy a paintball blister pack off the rack. If they're looking for more useful information by taking the time to read a "New Player's Guide", then that information should be included in the guide.

And when it comes to price, a used Classic 68 Mag is going to be available for sale nearly every day in the BST here on this forum for anywhere from $80 to $120, which is comparable or cheaper than a Tippy. And in the single-trigger, semiautomatic form, they have the exact same rate of fire as a 98 Custom or BT-4, so I don't really see the argument there about going up against mouse-click electros.

If you don't want to recommend a Classic Mag over a Tippy because you don't know anything about Mags, then that's fine. That would be your personal recommendation based upon your own knowledge and experiences. But when you create a self-proclaimed "New Player's Guide" and get input from the community in which you place it, maybe that input isn't all wrong.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:58 AM   #29 (permalink)
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While it was good for me to learn my Tippmann 98c when I bought it used....my Automag, even with a Level 10 installed, was WAY easier to tech despite having a slighly more complex operation.

I hated springs leaping out everywhere in my Tippmann; I used to put it all down on newspaper in the kitchen and still had to search for them sometimes.

No, the people at your local field may not know how to tech a Mag for you, but the tech at my field clearly didn't know how to tech a 98 either--I sold mine to a friend and it worked fine at first but I had started with HPA and he with CO2; it started getting all sorts of crazy velocity and their tech recommended cutting our drive spring (bad idea). He then left it for service and all they did was pour a ****ton of lube in it without even opening it (was super greasy inside, oil leaking out all over parts of clamshell). Gun still shot erratically.

You're far better off learning to fix your own things and to carry basic parts/tools with you. Money saved by going used can help you to get these things in advance.

That being said, I liked the mask part of the guide, but used markers are exceedingly useful, particularly if on a budget.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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yes I realize every field is going to be slightly different however, the chances of finding someone at a field who will now how to work on a tippy or spyder are enormously higher than someone who will know how to work on a mag. yes, they are simple, I have never said that they were not but so are spyders and if your new player section is anything like the others on other paintball forums and I am sure you guys get a lot of questions about spyders and other "simple" markers as well. And yes, I agree that knowing how to work on your own gear is wise but again, these are new players getting into the sport and this is not the matrix where you can just download that information into their heads. It takes time and while at the field knowing where to buy parts or find information online does the player the same amount of good as a factory warranty does on any other marker, very little.

To sum this up, if you feel the need to have a guide with mags included, by all means, write one. But in my experience, suggesting a marker that is rare and having few benefits over other markers that are readily available does a new player no good. I have seen far to many players get burned buying a used marker and having to deal with poor maintenance from the previous owner along with trying to learn just how this thing works to say that it is any benefit to them. In my opinion it is far better to spend the few extra bucks to find a new marker with a warranty that will have parts and players experienced with it more readily available than it is to try and save a few bucks on a first marker taking a risk on a used one that may or may not arrive working and having to deal with the headaches that follow. I have seen players leave the sport because they felt it was too expensive and were too frustrated having to repair a marker that someone had told them was in "good working order" as a first setup.

Down the road, by all means, go nuts, buy everything used. If players have a backup marker (which is what the first one often becomes) problems at the field do not stop them from having a good time. put the first marker away and pick up the backup.

As i said in the guide, this is not an all questions answered thing but just something to point the way and give some basic info. its not like these markers are the only ones anyone has ever started with but that being said when putting this together I did feel that these were some of the better options that are out there.
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