General

[The Inflicted]

Originally Posted by HurtCow

but the modern e-guns have evolved light, quiet, efficient, reliable markers, all things that RM's are not.

And some of these designs don't even use zip-ties from the factory!

[Crimson Death]

Originally Posted by bgearing

I don't want to respond to anyone in particular, but I want to make a few points after reading this thread.

I managed a paintball division of a brick and mortar paintball store in the early 2000s, including an indoor field. I worked for BlackCat Productions, in that capacity dealt with a large number of field and store owners. I am still in very close touch with several field/store owners who are close friends.

From this vantage point, while I feel bad for folks like Titus, I have to say that I love the Kee policy of only dealing with actual storefronts. In the early 2000s, NPS's willingness to do business with anyone, anytime, no questions asked was the biggest threat to fields and stores. Internet storefronts were eating us alive selling in greater quantity at tiny markups. Everyone in the paintball community knew somebody who would sell off of his tailgate or out of his garage for cheaper than those of us trying to make rent and keep a facility open. It was not uncommon for field owners to discover that players with accounts at National were undercutting pro shop prices and selling out of their trunks right at the field.

I'm sorry to anyone that's hurt by this policy, but it is the best policy for the industry in the long term.

Next is the confusion between NPS and Kee. NPS, under Gino Postorivo, was famous for its dirty business practices. Standard operating procedure was to order a huge quantity of a hot new product from an up and coming manufacturer. Far more of the product, in fact, than they knew would sell. NPS would even provide financial backing allowing the small company to gear up to fill this order. Come the next year, when NPS would not make the same oversized order, this left the company unable to repay this investment. NPS would helpfully acquire the new company. Of course, if this didn't work, they'd just blatantly produce an identical product in China and label it 32 Degrees.

My personal favorite NPS strategy was to just sell products on the internet or mail order 1-888-Paintball and other names. They would actually sell many products directly to consumers at lower than the wholesale cost that they offered their dealers. You could even call 1-888-Paintball and NPS and get your dealer sales rep answering the phone.

Many people think that Kee is just NPS. This is not true. NPS is Gino Postorivo. Kee is something new. While Kee can be accused of making some rather dissapointingly low quality products, they can hardly be accused of the same dismal practices.

It's worth noting, however, that NPS has just reopened across the street from Kee under the name Valken. Gino runs the place, and he is essentially producing a copy of every Kee product at two or three dollars less. Many former Kee sales reps have gone across the street to work for Gino. Valken seems to somehow have all of Kee's contact information, and they send wholesale fliers that are almost identical to Kee's to dealers. I've even heard reports that Gino is already repeating his old tricks of creating internet storefronts to directly undercut his wholesale customers.

yea it's pretty whack.

[DFSniper]

Originally Posted by russc

Yep, RMs are hopelessly outdated in an age where you can get those $50 AR-1 FASORs.

wow, really!? of course, thats IF you can find one.

Originally Posted by manike

How do you feel something like Brass Eagle stacks up in the market place against Extreme Rage?

While you think about that, how about JT and Empire? Viewloader and Halo? WGP, who does that compare to now?

Personally Viewloader was a company I aspired to when I first started working on loaders. Dave Bell was something of a hero of mine, and I remember the first day I met him. He now works for me and is an extremely important member of my team. Funny how it will be having him and Viewloader together again.

JT was the first real paintball Jersey I ever bought, and Pant. For years I wouldn't wear anything other than a Spectra goggle.

i tried to address this earlier, but got sidetracked. i too grew up on BE and the like. my first gun was a talon (the gray one, not the ghost) and then i had an eradicator. i still have my first BE mask, and have never owned anything other than JT masks. i love my 07 Teams and have an 06 jersey in the mail. oh, and my eggy3 is my backup to my Rotor.

personally, in the current market, i rank BE and ER at the same level. not saying theres anything wrong with them, but theyre pretty low in my book product-wise. BE makes entry level guns, ER makes entry level gear

JT and Empire are on equal ground. both are top quality gear companies. although i think JT could use some better pod packs.

i rank halo/empire above VL just because they have embraced newer technology, while VL is still using paddles for the most part, and their designs are just ugly (aka, eggy and cheese wedge)

since WGP stopped making guns, i dont even see them as a contender in the market.

[custar]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

And some of these designs don't even use zip-ties from the factory!

Hey, I keep zip ties on my RM's to impress the agg crowd.

custar

[Instien'spaintball]

Originally Posted by bgearing

I don't want to respond to anyone in particular, but I want to make a few points after reading this thread.

I managed a paintball division of a brick and mortar paintball store in the early 2000s, including an indoor field. I worked for BlackCat Productions, in that capacity dealt with a large number of field and store owners. I am still in very close touch with several field/store owners who are close friends.

From this vantage point, while I feel bad for folks like Titus, I have to say that I love the Kee policy of only dealing with actual storefronts. In the early 2000s, NPS's willingness to do business with anyone, anytime, no questions asked was the biggest threat to fields and stores. Internet storefronts were eating us alive selling in greater quantity at tiny markups. Everyone in the paintball community knew somebody who would sell off of his tailgate or out of his garage for cheaper than those of us trying to make rent and keep a facility open. It was not uncommon for field owners to discover that players with accounts at National were undercutting pro shop prices and selling out of their trunks right at the field.

I'm sorry to anyone that's hurt by this policy, but it is the best policy for the industry in the long term.

Next is the confusion between NPS and Kee. NPS, under Gino Postorivo, was famous for its dirty business practices. Standard operating procedure was to order a huge quantity of a hot new product from an up and coming manufacturer. Far more of the product, in fact, than they knew would sell. NPS would even provide financial backing allowing the small company to gear up to fill this order. Come the next year, when NPS would not make the same oversized order, this left the company unable to repay this investment. NPS would helpfully acquire the new company. Of course, if this didn't work, they'd just blatantly produce an identical product in China and label it 32 Degrees.

My personal favorite NPS strategy was to just sell products on the internet or mail order 1-888-Paintball and other names. They would actually sell many products directly to consumers at lower than the wholesale cost that they offered their dealers. You could even call 1-888-Paintball and NPS and get your dealer sales rep answering the phone.

Many people think that Kee is just NPS. This is not true. NPS is Gino Postorivo. Kee is something new. While Kee can be accused of making some rather dissapointingly low quality products, they can hardly be accused of the same dismal practices.

It's worth noting, however, that NPS has just reopened across the street from Kee under the name Valken. Gino runs the place, and he is essentially producing a copy of every Kee product at two or three dollars less. Many former Kee sales reps have gone across the street to work for Gino. Valken seems to somehow have all of Kee's contact information, and they send wholesale fliers that are almost identical to Kee's to dealers. I've even heard reports that Gino is already repeating his old tricks of creating internet storefronts to directly undercut his wholesale customers.

That is why I dropped NPS and got out of paintball in 2000'
I was just thinking how long it was going to take Gino?
Old Dog, Same Old Tricks!
He has to pump up Valken! Get the propaganda Machine up and run'

[Instien'spaintball]

KEE didn't buy anything, or any rights. We tried to work with them and arrange a deal that would be of benefit to both companies. We put a huge amount of time and resources into it (and I designed and made two custom versions of the gun with some improvements I wanted to see) but ultimately the opportunity wasn't right and there was no deal finalized. Shame after the time and money our R&D team put into it, but that's the way it goes sometimes. The ultimate decision not to move forwards with them was simply a business decision.

I know Russ Kiesche, I think that's who you mean. Any comments from the owners of the group were unfortunately premature.

I believe they are continuing to provide and support the guns and I wish them the best of luck.

http://www.apxgear.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=115
APX is Vanguard Creed Distributer

[WilD]

Originally Posted by Titus

don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter

Well, at least you admit you are full of bull****. Kee made the right choice in not selling to you. You don't have a legit store as far as I can tell, online or otherwise. If they did sell to you at wholesale, legitimate retailers would have a serious gripe with them. I'm honestly a little bit surprised anyone does business with you for just that reason.

[Titus]

Originally Posted by WilD

Well, at least you admit you are full of bull****.

It's a phrase, don't make it bigger than it is. What do you define as an online store? I have inventory online, people email me in their orders, I ship out. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

[Drum]

I did business with Titus and his online store and everything went just fine. Like most things internet related, if you believe it then it is true for you. Nothing else matters... and certainly not a concept so antiquated and outmoded as "the truth".

Relativism got real.

D

[WilD]

Please link me to the store and I'll stand corrected.

Edit: My definition of a store is a persistant presence, whether a brick and mortar storefront, or a dedicated online store. It is cut and dry.