General

[The Inflicted]

Originally Posted by desertT1

That C&D was addressed here in post 31.

I remember that, but CCM said they simply didn't respond to their letter. They did stop semi-auto production though.
Glen Palmer drafted an open letter to WGP threatening to pursue action for the pneumatic issue, but at this point WGP/KEE isn't building any autocockers so that might be an empty threat at this point.

Now that WGP's trade dress has a new owner, Palmer's claims are no longer relevant, and CCM's share of the pump market has proven itself to be considerably more lucrative than it was in 2005, things could change.

[manike]

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

Now that they own WGP's trade dress rights for the Sniper and Autococker, I wonder if KEE will file try to collect a licensing fee from CCM, or file a cease and desist against them if they refuse.

No.

Very unlikely in any course, and very definitely won't happen if I have any say (which I would). I don't believe WGP's trade dress complaint was correct in the original place, and it's certainly not something I can see us looking to pursue legally.

Originally Posted by The Inflicted

Owning the autococker line, KEE could also begin importing and distributing 'cocker clones (Or more likely, pumps made by the same) from whatever OEM made the Superbolt, Lightning, and Odyssey O3m. These former autococker clones then could be sold as genuine WGP products.

IF, (and that's a big IF) we were to make an Autococker under KEE, I would ensure it be the quality that it deserves to be.

The Lightning and Superbolt were before my time with NPS and I was always pretty disgusted by them. About the only thing they were good for was converting to a pump gun. Even then the fact they were knock offs, pissed me off. I really don't see there suddenly being a flood onto the market of the old Lightenings or Superbolts!

[DFSniper]

a WGP sniper to compete with the AKP would be awesome. and i mean 2k+ body, not trilogy

[Critical]

I would prefer blanks, like the Merlin extrusions, that people could get custom milled.

[bgearing]

Originally Posted by Titus

Or are you going to just attribute that to Ambers rack in the photo?

Well, I dunno if it explains everything, but the very appealing rack in question certainly doesn't hurt.

Now, as far as Kee getting control of all of these properties, I'm not really very happy about it. It's tough to be critical when Simon's clearly such a great guy, but it really isn't good for paintball to have this continued acquisition of so many brands by so few actual owners. It's been a real shame to see the trend continue.

And as far as the reputation of Kee products.. Well, I'm sorry Simon, but I don't know if it's all that great.

Empire will always be a compromised brand name to me. It's just the name that NPS started putting on things when 32 degrees had become synonymous with cheap, crappy rip-offs of other people's products. There's no fixing that association.

Invert is a brand that I associate with guns that have great design but low manufacturing quality. Minis are popular in my area, for instance.. It's a wonderful design, and I really want to like the gun, but its build quality is almost down there with the Ion. It's cheap, it's flimsy, the kids constantly manage to break them. Great design, terrible execution.

BT is tough. They're blatant copies of Tippmann products, but considering the origin of the brand I can't call it a rip-off. There are some nice new features on some of the products, but there are so many corners cut. The powertubes are particularly awful. We've taken to replacing them with Model 98 powertubes when the kids break them.

Around here, we're so skeptical of Kee products that when we see companies like Dangerous Power or Azodin even associated with the distributor, we're automatically leery of pushing them.

Halo is still uncompromised, at least. Big fan of the Halo loaders, though I actually use a Torque on guns that need that kind of feed power. I'm cheap and I don't use those guns all that often anymore

Now, some of this is because we've been leery of all the big distributors, having seen what NPS and JT / Brass Eagle did. But you know.. We never had these concerns with PMI before Kee brought them in. Those guys kept their brands solid to the bitter end.

Maybe what you guys should consider doing is wiping the slate, to some extent. Instead of trying to live off the past, why not start fresh and build a brand that doesn't carry all the negative connotations carried over from the past? Honestly, though, I think you're going to have to do a little better than the Mini to really make that happen. This game of rehashing old names but doing it without living up to the reputations of the original has, I think, gotten such a bad reputation with the paintball community that there's no hope for rehabilitating some of the brand names.

[DFSniper]

i have to disagree slightly. empire has made its mark in the industry. 32 degrees never contributed to professional pb. this could just be me, but with empire using halo technology and now invert, i just see invert as an arm of empire, but marketed towards an audience with tighter wallets.

[bgearing]

There are lots of brands who've paid pros to use their gear. Even Brass Eagle and Kingman did it.

This hardly counts as 'making a mark'. At least not one that 'contributes' to anything, other than the gearbags of some pros.

[DFSniper]

what im saying is, empire has made its name as a high quality brand. if it sucked, you wouldnt see everyone (not just professionals) using it. im not just talking about the people that get paid to wear it, but the people that WANT to wear it.


oh, and simon, random thought of the day: axiom quick-release frames that are compatible with flex bottoms!

[heinous]

Originally Posted by DFSniper

if it sucked, you wouldnt see everyone (not just professionals) using it.

in this sport? are you kidding me? you of all people should know that.

[Serafin]

Whenever I began to really be introduced into paintball (2005/2006) I wasn't aware of many of the problems with different companies.

Even before I began playing, if I ever went to Wal-Mart and saw a Brass Eagle gun I'd think what a cheap piece of crap. I would never spend money on anything that is Brass Eagle.
I thought of JT as the same way. Their logo seemed to childish and uncool to me I guess. While I'm on that note, the Extreme Rage logo isn't any better, but at least those products never looked like that were going to wear out after one use.
I think WGP is a horrible brand name. And my friends that had Autocockers didn't know how to maintain them because of their higher level of complexity, so nothing from them ever appealed to me.
Viewloader made revs. That's the only thing of theirs I'd use. I hated the Vlocity I owned, it was awful. Then there were Quantums. That alone is worth it to kill the name.

For Simon's comparison of the brands:
Brass Eagle always made markers, and Extreme Rage made accessories. That's how I associate them. Ditch all JT markers and Viewloader Markers and keep Brass Eagle as a low, low end, perhaps Piranha based markers. Extreme Rage branded accessories could go along with them in the package deals.

Halo has always been better than viewloader on forcefeeds. However, the Halo TSA, and Reloader 2 I have blow, whereas the Revs I've used are much better. Plus with the mech scene and lower ROF they become relevant again. I do like the Extreme Rage Overdrive db though. Kinda ugly but it feeds well. People know what you mean when you say you have a Halo, but to say you have a Viewloader doesn't mean as much. It doesn't help they had one brand for high and low end stuff.

Empire is better than JT softgoods.
When I first started I did buy a pair of 06 React gloves brand new for reffing. They fell apart after one day. I went with Evil soft goods only after that. And with Dye soft goods when I had money and Evil was discontinued. I had to be convince the new Empire gear didn't suck anymore and the QC had improved greatly before I bought my Freedom gloves.
I will say that the current QC of Empire gear makes it one of the top 5 in durability now. I'd still put Dye at the top of that list due to my personal experience with them and I'm still wearing a pair of C6's that look brand new.
JT softgoods, from what I understand, were THE softgoods. Now they suck.
A revamped JT line could fit nicely in between Invert and Empire. I like the idea with the Empire LTD stuff and I think they should make it all that quality to compete with Dye goods more closely and fit the JT line in the high end segment while Invert is the mid-grade stuff.

I don't like Flexes either but they don't stay on my head very well. But I think they are a good mask. They fit well between the Invert Helix and Events. Not sure what you would do with the Avatars though. A lot of scenario guys here like the softer material with integrated ears; makes it easier for their mircophones to fit. Give BT a mask?

I've never seen any paint besides RPS/Diablo shoot decent. While I hate the tiny tiny bore size everything has now and it seems the QC has dropped off on consistency on the Premium, its still better than everything else I've shot. Except Formula 13, that crap is awful. Heat shoots and breaks better.
But I would say that a paint that is cheaper than Stinger might be beneficial. And why is Evil sold at Academy? Some of it here arrived in store back in 2008 according to the shipping label on the box.
But I see no reason to still have the Fluid paint brand unless for temp/humidity/seasonal paint for different regions.

As a player that's only been in the sport more recently, I think this gives a different perspective on how new players see the brands.
My Pro-shop here won't carry crap. It was a PMI store before Kee, but they have a lot of faith in the new management to make the company better. And they love the stuff that Simon does.

That's my 2 cents.