Urgent Safety Warnings/Info regarding "SA-8" - Page 10

CovertRssian · 02-17-2010, 10:47 AM

MondoMor it's actually not even that difficult. I shot Pepperballs at 280fps and they still broke. The reason they jack up the FPS is because it adds to the stun thus shocks the victim and then the Hot Pava immobilizes them.

Thus my point is, shooting anything but paintballs or reballs makes it LTL, otherwise it's a paintball marker.

InBlack · 02-17-2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Party

Well i'm relativly close to you, so i'm just looking forward to the day you try.

Looking forward to it!

uv_halo · 02-17-2010, 11:00 AM

Assertion:
"My SA-8 shoots 280FPS, I can use it"

Problems:
1. It's winter, see where you get it to on a summer day, after the 12g has been pierced and allowed to warm up to ambient temperature.

2. Liquid CO2:
In most paintball guns using CO2, the source is below the valve. The same is the case with the T8/SA-8. But, think about how most people carry a pistol in between matches or even in between engagements- pointed downwards. In other pistol designs, the CO2 is still below the valve (often aligned with the barrel). This is not the case with the T8/SA-8.

Liquid CO2 is more of a problem with spool valve markers than most other designs. Mainly because their valve/dump chamber volume is ridiculously large and can hold a lot of liquid compared to most other valve designs (i.e. the Tippmann CVX valve). The more liquid in the valve, the more of it can flash off when the valve opens. According to some posts in this thread, the valve /dump chamber in the SA-8 has even more volume than the T8.

The T8/SA-8 relies upon narrow air paths to cause a drop in pressure that allows the bolt to reset (and the valve to close) as compared to an Automag that has an on/off valve. There are two consequences of this. One, it takes longer for the T8/SA-8 valve to fill with liquid compared to a Custom 98 (or other CVX valve). Two, once filled, it takes much longer to drain back out and into the 12g once the 12g is below the valve.

So, you've got a 'perfect liquid CO2 Storm' conditions there. A ridiculously large volume in the valve, and a restricted path preventing it from flowing back out (once the gun is in the proper orientation). The relief valve on the T8 is the only thing that works to mitigate this problem.

MondoMor · 02-17-2010, 11:04 AM

My point has been, how many people actually set their relief properly?

If this is a real safety concern, shouldn't fields be checking relief valve settings and velocities for T8/T9 users?

If they're not, and these users have simply screwed in their adjusters all the way, they're arguably more dangerous than an SA-8.

Where is the irrational hysterical fear of those people?

It's simple hypocrisy to ban SA-8 users for having unsafe guns, unless you also check each and every T8/T9 to make sure the pressure relief has been set properly.

Edit:

LOL nobody's ready any posts before they respond, so I can say these things with impunity: Carter's mother wears Army boots! Harb enjoys chick flicks! This is pointless. Thanks for dropping a bomb and running away, Eric.

Judge Parker · 02-17-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBlack

I'm sure mostly everyone that has bought an SA-8 will defend their right to keep it and use it at the field til the day they die, but the reality of it is, its a less than lethal launcher. Yah sure, you have no problem using it at the field but you're not the one being shot at with it.

Luckily enough, in Canada you can't really get these less than lethal products, but if I do ever see one on the field, I will report it immediately and make a huge deal about it.

I'm glad to see Tiberius taking responsibility even though it wasn't their job to ensure that this other company would not be selling the products to random people. People need to be more responsible.

You gonna report everyone with a tippmann? You know most of their less than lethal launchers are tippmann guns with a pepperball sticker slapped on them.

pk5 · 02-17-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBlack

I'm sure mostly everyone that has bought an SA-8 will defend their right to keep it and use it at the field til the day they die, but the reality of it is, its a less than lethal launcher. Yah sure, you have no problem using it at the field but you're not the one being shot at with it.

Luckily enough, in Canada you can't really get these less than lethal products, but if I do ever see one on the field, I will report it immediately and make a huge deal about it.

I'm glad to see Tiberius taking responsibility even though it wasn't their job to ensure that this other company would not be selling the products to random people. People need to be more responsible.

Ok

Really people? Are you guy blowing this out of proportion or what? What is more dangerous? The guy with the SA-8 properly chrono his velocity, understanding the in and out of it, or the kid with the ego/a-5/etc...shooting hot?

Secondly, if someone just paint the SA-8 black, then it's a guarantee that the field won't even make a fuss, for one thing, no one will pay that much attention to a single gun, unless you are running a field with 10 players. Sure walk on with a typhoon nasty will get you attention, but walk on with a clip fed pistol and everyone will simply say "o i saw those before, nothing new, now how about that hot new pink ego XX over there".

I don't think any side have made a valid case as to why this is dangerous or unsafe. If you claim that the SA-8 is dangerous due to it lack of relief valve or high velocity, then prove it. If you own one, and claim that when the weather is hot you cannot get it to a safe velocity, prove that it is true. If you can't prove it, then shut up, what do you really have to loose in this situation? There are many more dangerous guns out there on the field, last big game we play there were at least 10 guns shooting above 300 that got kick off the field and quite a few ramping. Stop claiming without actual proof, and if you actually own one of the SA-8 are you gonna take up on tiberius offer? Or are you just another fan boy jumping in claiming "joy, here is tiberius to save the day".

Safety or not, this is a genius marketing move. If they can get all those clips back and even resale them at refurb price they are still getting a nice profit and take all those cheap clip off the market just to turn around and make a profit on it.

CovertRssian · 02-17-2010, 11:43 AM

uv_halo you have just answered my question to why the SA-8 FPS jumps around so much. These guns really do need the bleed valve to insurance better performance and consistency on the field.

Like I mentioned before in this or the other thread, my Tippmann jumps around as much, thus I have to keep my FPS lower to be safe. But that cause craptastic consistency.

MondoMor, I completely agree with you. I design user ticketing systems and related information gathering databases. I know that if I don't explicitly require something it will never be used or filled out. Same mentality here. If the gun works perfectly fine without the average user touching the relief valve, it will never be adjusted.

What will happen is, they will hear hissing and be like "oh noes I'm wasting air!", and just tighten it in all the way.

If there is a ban on SA-8's I personally will start telling the field owners to check every T8/T9 player over the chrono and make sure the relief valve is set. Tiberius, once again the ball is in your court, you can be very good company now, or screw over "a few SA-8" owners, but that will leave you to a huge PR disaster because we wont sit quietly.

Mayvik · 02-17-2010, 11:54 AM

Ok, I just got off the phone with Pete from Tiberius. Here's the deal:

Eric is spearheading this issue. He's out of the office until Monday. If you urgently need to get in contact with him, email. Pete isn't "the guy" so please let's not have 2039850298530 people calling and bombarding him with questions.

Pete didn't have a whole lot of information, however he reiterated that the basic issue was that the Pepperball SA-8s are not designed for paintball (springing and air volume), nor do they have a single configuration (which we can all attest to based on the varying degrees of powdercoat, anodizing, etc) so it's real hard for them to even say what people have. Tiberius does not warranty these guns. It is possible for them to shoot hot, which is unsafe and can possibly cause premature component wear. If the gun is set to and consistently shooting field legal velocity, it is shooting legal field velocity, however if a field sees the "not for paintball" emblazoned on it or otherwise recognizes it as a SA-8 and tells you to leave it in the car, do so. I translate this to mean, treat this as a tinker gun for all intents and purposes, make sure you chrono regularly and often, and don't pester Tiberius for parts requests, etc. All of this is "unofficial" statements until Eric comes back.

He did mention there was no easy fix for them to do an "upgrade" kit, which they had considered. I asked him about the magazine-less return as an option, and he seemed to think that some of the Pepperball guns even had different mags, but that it may be possible to work out a different type of exchange once Eric gets back.

So in summary...wait until Monday, and we'll find out more then.

DFSniper · 02-17-2010, 12:19 PM

hats off to you. glad someone took some initiative instead of just whining about it!

ajmidget · 02-17-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CovertRssian

If there is a ban on SA-8's I personally will start telling the field owners to check every T8/T9 player over the chrono and make sure the relief valve is set. Tiberius, once again the ball is in your court, you can be very good company now, or screw over "a few SA-8" owners, but that will leave you to a huge PR disaster because we wont sit quietly.

are you seriously trying to threaten a company (who is trying to save your *** from a lawsuit) with BLACKMAIL?????

also "marking balls", "inert rounds", ETC. are NOT the same as PBs. they have super hard and strong shells to make it even MORE painful for the criminal being shot at.

also this isn't about us SA8 owners getting hurt its about US hurting OTHERS. some people here need to think about this in a much less selfish way.

02-17-2010, 11:00 AM	#93 (permalink)
uv_halo MCB Member Join Date: Mar 2008	Assertion: "My SA-8 shoots 280FPS, I can use it" Problems: 1. It's winter, see where you get it to on a summer day, after the 12g has been pierced and allowed to warm up to ambient temperature. 2. Liquid CO2: In most paintball guns using CO2, the source is below the valve. The same is the case with the T8/SA-8. But, think about how most people carry a pistol in between matches or even in between engagements- pointed downwards. In other pistol designs, the CO2 is still below the valve (often aligned with the barrel). This is not the case with the T8/SA-8. Liquid CO2 is more of a problem with spool valve markers than most other designs. Mainly because their valve/dump chamber volume is ridiculously large and can hold a lot of liquid compared to most other valve designs (i.e. the Tippmann CVX valve). The more liquid in the valve, the more of it can flash off when the valve opens. According to some posts in this thread, the valve /dump chamber in the SA-8 has even more volume than the T8. The T8/SA-8 relies upon narrow air paths to cause a drop in pressure that allows the bolt to reset (and the valve to close) as compared to an Automag that has an on/off valve. There are two consequences of this. One, it takes longer for the T8/SA-8 valve to fill with liquid compared to a Custom 98 (or other CVX valve). Two, once filled, it takes much longer to drain back out and into the 12g once the 12g is below the valve. So, you've got a 'perfect liquid CO2 Storm' conditions there. A ridiculously large volume in the valve, and a restricted path preventing it from flowing back out (once the gun is in the proper orientation). The relief valve on the T8 is the only thing that works to mitigate this problem. __________________ 1989 Line SI Bushmaster SI Deluxe SP 'Woodstalker' Ion T-9 W/FS Upgrade (work in progress)

02-17-2010, 11:04 AM	#94 (permalink)
MondoMor la la la la revolution Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: MN	My point has been, how many people actually set their relief properly? If this is a real safety concern, shouldn't fields be checking relief valve settings and velocities for T8/T9 users? If they're not, and these users have simply screwed in their adjusters all the way, they're arguably more dangerous than an SA-8. Where is the irrational hysterical fear of those people? It's simple hypocrisy to ban SA-8 users for having unsafe guns, unless you also check each and every T8/T9 to make sure the pressure relief has been set properly. Edit: LOL nobody's ready any posts before they respond, so I can say these things with impunity: Carter's mother wears Army boots! Harb enjoys chick flicks! This is pointless. Thanks for dropping a bomb and running away, Eric. Last edited by MondoMor; 02-17-2010 at 01:03 PM.

02-17-2010, 11:54 AM	#98 (permalink)
Mayvik Inch of Gold Join Date: May 2007 Location: Denver	Ok, I just got off the phone with Pete from Tiberius. Here's the deal: Eric is spearheading this issue. He's out of the office until Monday. If you urgently need to get in contact with him, email. Pete isn't "the guy" so please let's not have 2039850298530 people calling and bombarding him with questions. Pete didn't have a whole lot of information, however he reiterated that the basic issue was that the Pepperball SA-8s are not designed for paintball (springing and air volume), nor do they have a single configuration (which we can all attest to based on the varying degrees of powdercoat, anodizing, etc) so it's real hard for them to even say what people have. Tiberius does not warranty these guns. It is possible for them to shoot hot, which is unsafe and can possibly cause premature component wear. If the gun is set to and consistently shooting field legal velocity, it is shooting legal field velocity, however if a field sees the "not for paintball" emblazoned on it or otherwise recognizes it as a SA-8 and tells you to leave it in the car, do so. I translate this to mean, treat this as a tinker gun for all intents and purposes, make sure you chrono regularly and often, and don't pester Tiberius for parts requests, etc. All of this is "unofficial" statements until Eric comes back. He did mention there was no easy fix for them to do an "upgrade" kit, which they had considered. I asked him about the magazine-less return as an option, and he seemed to think that some of the Pepperball guns even had different mags, but that it may be possible to work out a different type of exchange once Eric gets back. So in summary...wait until Monday, and we'll find out more then. __________________ My Feedback

02-17-2010, 10:47 AM	#91 (permalink)
CovertRssian Active Member Join Date: Jan 2010	MondoMor it's actually not even that difficult. I shot Pepperballs at 280fps and they still broke. The reason they jack up the FPS is because it adds to the stun thus shocks the victim and then the Hot Pava immobilizes them. Thus my point is, shooting anything but paintballs or reballs makes it LTL, otherwise it's a paintball marker.

02-17-2010, 11:43 AM	#97 (permalink)
CovertRssian Active Member Join Date: Jan 2010	uv_halo you have just answered my question to why the SA-8 FPS jumps around so much. These guns really do need the bleed valve to insurance better performance and consistency on the field. Like I mentioned before in this or the other thread, my Tippmann jumps around as much, thus I have to keep my FPS lower to be safe. But that cause craptastic consistency. MondoMor, I completely agree with you. I design user ticketing systems and related information gathering databases. I know that if I don't explicitly require something it will never be used or filled out. Same mentality here. If the gun works perfectly fine without the average user touching the relief valve, it will never be adjusted. What will happen is, they will hear hissing and be like "oh noes I'm wasting air!", and just tighten it in all the way. If there is a ban on SA-8's I personally will start telling the field owners to check every T8/T9 player over the chrono and make sure the relief valve is set. Tiberius, once again the ball is in your court, you can be very good company now, or screw over "a few SA-8" owners, but that will leave you to a huge PR disaster because we wont sit quietly.