General

[shadow_772]

Originally Posted by Ghostcom

Well, I used to own SWAT:T348, an orange SA-8, and now it is midway back to pepperball.
I bought this because I couldnot afford a full-price T8...and it seemed like a great deal...but if it too good to be true...

I am a history teacher, and all I need is for the SA-8 to up and injury some kid, and I'm on the news and the state pulls my ability to teach!

I was tried off the worry and that seem to come with the "deal", I I not yet test my SA-8, and so pepperbell took my back, minus a 15% restocking fee.

I just wanted a pistol...not a dramabomb (great word!) and the a marker that I mostly likely will not be able to use....and IF something should happen, like my pistol cracking a mask or hurting someone, I don't wanna live with that kind of guilt over turning to save a Franklin.

I called my local fields, they knew of the drama around the SA8, and they were going to ban them from use...to CYA themselves. And he made a good point about trying to hid the SA8 as a T8...he told me that one or two pistol show up on a PB field per weekend...its easy to check for them.

I am going to save my money and buy either an T8 or TPX...no more deals and no more worry....just good old full price!
I am not trusting any Tiberius 8 being sold now...they could be SA8's.

This whole experience as made me feel used and foolish...and I took a shower after putting my SA8 back in the mail...
I should have never done this...but live and learn...

The SA-8's have a completely different type of serial number. Just ask for pics of the serial #.

[Mayvik]

Originally Posted by shadow_772

The SA-8's have a completely different type of serial number. Just ask for pics of the serial #.

Just ask for a picture of the back block. If it has 2 button head hex screws and a silver disc, it's an SA-8. If it has a sub-flush single hex bolt, it's a T8. There are some other ways to tell but they aren't as easy.

The laser engraving also works unless it's been painted or refinished, in which case it WON'T have one.

[shadow_772]

Originally Posted by scrounger

Me and druid are both correctional officers, friends, and trained in LTL launchers/guns.

So after reading all 24 pages I thought I would try to simplify the whole problem/discussion.

In the eyes of the law and the sue happy society we live in it does not matter if the device in question (in this case SA-8 vs T8) is set up mechanically identical. What matters is one is LABELED, ADVERTISED,CERTIFIED LESS THAN LETHAL/NON RECREATIONAL USE and one is PAINTBALL. PERIOD.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, when someone gets hurt and decides to sue.....all the arguments here (won't quote all 24 pages) for using it will go right out the window when the jury/judge sees "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE". You can bring in witnesses/professionals till doomsday, when they see the warning and all the literature that comes with it...case closed, bend over (legally speaking).

Lets reverse this a little. In my job I CANNOT USE my X7 even though it is the same as the t-3000 launcher in function, most parts (excluding the electro board and cosmetic things), and velocity. The lawyers, public, and my sargant would crucify me. No expert testimony would save me.

Tiberius is just trying to extra cover their backside. Lawyers go after the deepest pockets, no matter that the SA-8 clearly says "not for recreational use". This way when (not if) little dumb decides to sue and lists tiberius. They can show they went "out of their way" to warn the customer.

IMO I think they don't want a conversion kit due to the fact it would open them to liability for some who does not install it right (for whatever reason) then blames them.

The reality is it is listed as "not for recreation" self defence pepperball launcher. PERIOD.

Sorry, reality sucks.

Scrounger

This is basically what I was getting at a few pages back. :]

[shadow_772]

Originally Posted by Mayvik

Just ask for a picture of the back block. If it has 2 button head hex screws and a silver disc, it's an SA-8. If it has a sub-flush single hex bolt, it's a T8. There are some other ways to tell but they aren't as easy.

The laser engraving also works unless it's been painted or refinished, in which case it WON'T have one.

That is true. I figure if you are worried it is an SA-8 instead of a T8 and the guy tells you the S/N has been painted over, you should basically stay away anyhow IMO...

Although you offer the best solution all together. All in all, for you buyers out there, just be cautious, check for these things and don't rush to buy and you should be fine.

[Posey]

I wonder what would happen if Tiberius came out Monday and makes the announcement that the SA-8 is just as safe as the Tac 8 as long as it is properly chrono'ed and firing paintballs. If they don't, I wonder how long people will second guess purchasing a Tac 8 in the interest of avoiding all the negative press surrounding the SA-8. Maybe Tiberius would be smart to say that the SA-8 is safe for paintball as long as it is properly chrono'ed and firing paintballs. Maybe they'll figure out that a short term loss in sales and the specter of possible litigation is less dangerous than the possible long term loss in product confidence. Who knows. So far, no one seems to have had a problem with large errant spikes in FPS form shot to shot out of an SA-8. Quite a bit of the hub bub seems to stem from a cursory examination of the philosophy of use.

[Ghostcom]

You guys are right...I mainly would not trust Ebay...

I called Tiberius before I returned my Tang SA-8...and they stayed on the phone with me for 17 minutes and answered all my questions...I was very impressed with them...would give Tiberius another chance.

BTW-they asked me why I didn't just buy a regular TAC8, and I said they were too expensive...and I when I asked about keeping the magazines, and why they wanted them...he stated that they wanted the whole kit...but they did not care about the purple baby powder rounds...odd.
I think Tiberius is hoping to resell the Pepperball launcher kit to another company or something...but they seem worried what the effect of this whole crisis on their business will be.

[Ghostcom]

I think it unlikely that Tiberius will say anything like that...they are worried about safety and their rep as a company...after all Tippmann as the TPX...how much longer before others build a mag-fed .68 pistol.

Pistols are a small business afterall. Don't see any speedballers with'em...of course, it's against NPPL rules.

[Posey]

All the more reason to protect the market share they have. As to the safety issue, unless the SA-8 has errant pressure spikes or is unable to be reliably chrono'ed to paintball speeds, there is no safety issue. I can make most of my markers fire up above 320 FPS, but I don't, because I want to stay out of jail, and all the fields I've been to require frequent chrono'ing. The SA-8 is no different. It just needs to be turned down out of the box.

[Posey]

I think Tiberius would come out smelling like a rose if they simply issued a public statement instructing all SA-8 owners how to properly tune their markers for paintball use, get a customer list from Pepperball, send the statement out in a mailer(with a catalog of other Tiberius products), and keep a descent lawyer on retainer. With this move, they hopefully insulate themselves from legal action, and make the whole paintball community happy. Maybe they could even sell the SA-8 owners a new reg spring at a slightly inflated price, ultimately lowering the range of pressure output. They increase safety and make some money.

[william77stout]

Hey, I just signed up hear so I can get in with the forum thats spearheading the whole SA-8 issue. I have deep respect for the people fighting on all the different grounds (what should be done, what is need, whats fair...).

I've posted some thoughts over at Techpb.com and since they aren't discussing much I decided to come here since most of the info is coming here anyways (not to mention the sites awesome. Anyways I have several thoughts and questions.

First what is the Definition for a Paintball gun?...a real gun? Then what do they do differently that separates them? Next at what point does something change from what it was to something different ( I know I'll explain). Ok, So at what point of destruction/ modification is a Tippmann 98 still a Tippmann 98? or An Angel an Angel? Non paintball related when is a boat no longer a boat? Say you take a hand gun like a Glock and pull all the internals out and stick new internals in so its now basically a squirt-gun with a Glock shroud; Is this still a gun?

I believe the issue that has been raised for SA-8 has deep ramifications to paintball that could lead the sport into several new directions and its important to discuss every aspect. I personally believe the issue needs more opinions. I believe it would be nice to get a lawyers perspective on this too (multiple if we can find them). I've considered talking with my law professor to maybe do a case study as it related directly to what we are discussing in class.

Also, I especially liked scrounger's comments (I can't get it to qoute) as he's a law enforcement officer and would have more knowledge in one area over other. I would also like to know a little bit more If I could. Since I can't quote I'll paraphrase you have a X7 that you can't use for law enforcement purposes, even though its the same as your law enforcement brand launcher in almost the same aspects. If (which I don't know) they let you have your personal cell phone with you while on the job don't they regulate when you can and can't use it? I'm trying to suggest that it depends on your departments rules.

I've heard of police station buying regular paintball guns and they just buy pepperballs for them and severl officers have their own setup which they are allowed to use if the situation should require it (ie riot/ crowd dispersal). If your departments rules said you could use your own then it would be your choice, but they chose to only use the departments. If I'm wrong about any of this just let me know, but the only reason you would get in trouble is because they said you would which would make the point good under your circumstances, but not necessarily everyone elses. Again I wish only to look at all sides of the argument hence my questions and suggestions above.

To quote myself "Tiberius is trying to deal with a weird situation to say the least. The Tac8 and the SA8 are partically the same in quality and extremely similar in design. The real reason the Tac8 cost $180 (actionvillage) is because paintball economics say a pistol can sell for $200. If everyone was only willing to pay $150 they would make a gun they can sell for $150. Its the same across the board for all guns and equipment. The top of the line 2010 guns like the ego are only going for that high of a price because thats what someone is willing to pay for them."

If anyone would like to disagree thats fine, but please look at an economic standpoint or read an economic book at this is just what it will tell you (very likely it will use oil as an example of a good). I will state for the record I have bought one of these SA-8 and would be willing once turned under 300FPS chronoed and safe to have anyone play against me with it. I would prefer to make it safer (like my G3 IQ I want it to be safer it goes off way to easily), but this gun doesn't have the adjustable safety valve, But from cool0 he's found a solution to remedy this. I will mention this is not the first paintball shooting gun that hasn't had a releif valve. Also I would be completely willing to pay for a safety modification for this marker that can be recognized like the one above. IE If it truely is unsafe and tiberius/ field owners don't want it used it can be seen without pulling it all apart. It doesn't look quite as good in my opinion, but I also payed $100 less.

I'm willing to see what ?Eric? from Tiberius has to say when he gets back, but the safety release was both rushed and needed. Obviously he is gone right now so he didn't get a chance to fully look over how this situation can be resolved as he didn't have so much time, but since these guns are out there they need to make sure people are safe. I believe they think there not safe because they come out of the box at like 400FPS. If I wasn't able to play with safety almost completely out of my mind I would play with it or any other gun/ equipment (ie shoe laces undone or mask cracked). Obviously I want a safe remedy thats fair for all parties Tiberius, players who bought these, and players who these could be used against.

I personally don't like Milsim rifles/ pistols that look real. The public doesn't totally know about paintball. I like the fact that markers don't look like guns and like the SA-8 (mine is orange)orange shroud which on any other gun signifies "fake" or "replica" calms the public when they see them. I was at a local field when the police came because a lady though someone was hunting in a public place (he had a A5 with a stock and the place is a local public land area with the city's permissions to play paintball there). Obviously this is long and I do have my own opinions, but want more info on everything, so post if you have an idea or thought. Scrounger if you read this and can get back to me I'd appreciate it.