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Old 05-18-2011, 11:53 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedavidson View Post
All "telling the ref" does is hand you a lost game and threats of further penalties against your team if you don't STFU.

Old School: I played in local, regional and national tournaments from 1984 through 1997 (regularly) and a few every once and a while since.

So far as players taking justice into their own hands on the field, NOTHING has changed since 1984. N.O.T.H.I.N.G.

Some of what Mike said is true: if you give respect, you get it back. Unfortunately, the reality is that usually, in order to get respect, you need to catch the other team while they are disrespecting you and make them eat it. Right? No. Could things be better? Sure - if we had a professional reffing crew.

As it is and always has been, more than likely the refs on the field are friends of the guys you're playing and you've got to beat them as well as the other team if you are going to win.

There really are only two options for a player: either accept the fact that you're going to have to 'regulate' on the field or don't play competitive ball. Any other options are a waste of money and time. Me - I opted to play, even if that meant I was going to have to 'put five into the back of someone's head' to prevent them from spinning on me. And, sad to say, you know what doing that got me after the game? A handshake and a recognition that I 'really' knew how to play the game. (Couple of threats of a fight in the parking lot too, stopped by teammates of the 'offended' party who told him that he got what he deserved.)

It is a very twisted logic, but one ultimately borne out of paintball's refusal/inability to put real referees on the field and to enact real sanctions against deserving players.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:13 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I’ve played tournaments too back in the day 84-86 and never saw this. But it’s kind of hard to bonus ball with a nelspot or pg/pgp. My games were in the woods/swamps, and in Texas at the Nationals one year, with fire ants. 10 on 10 15 on 15 on a couple acres so it was a much different game. I never got on a speedball field until maybe 2 years ago.

And I never saw anyone take justice into their own hands on the field in those years. And as a ref at Coram under Mike and John we did not tolerate any kind of nonsense from walk-ons or regulars, regular games or competitive games. Maybe because we were older players, 20 + years old, and not kids. We were very well aware of the controversy of our sport at the time and did everything we could to discourage any kind of negative anything.

When you give respect, sometimes you get respect and sometimes you don’t. So when you don’t get respect back, instead of just walking away, you act like a thug and cause physical injury and pain to another person on purpose. For “respect”. So now paintball is akin to gang behavior.

So what you are saying is instead of banding together and demanding and making changes you fed your money into a system that was corrupt and encouraged others to as well. Of the 2 choices – play a corrupt game and have to hurt others and risk being hurt myself or not play at all – option 2 seems the better of the option. The other option not mentioned is creating an honest, real league. Where rules are enforced and unsportsmanlike conduct is not rewarded but punished.

Would you play baseball, football, basketball, tennis, or anything for that matter knowing the refs and umpires were working against you? Instead of walking and creating a league that discouraged the kind of behavior we see and hear about, you choose to become one of those who continue unsportsmanlike like behavior and acceptance of this behavior. Instead of taking the high road of mature responsible sportsmanlike play you’ve chosen to take the low road and act just like those who cause the problems and to perpetuate unsportsmanlike like behavior to win a game – seems very childish.

It’s not paintball’s refusal/inability to put real referees on the field and to enact real sanctions against deserving players. It’s the players acceptance of this and their feeding of money into this system. If you feed a pig **** and it eats the ****, why spend money on giving it real food when it is perfectly happy eating ****.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:27 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Maybe tournament paintball just doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't have the relevance to the average player that it did even five years ago.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:34 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't know Chris, nor do I judge him from that video. And IMO professional fulltime refs will make for better controled game, but they will never fix it. Having a couple home teams being the ref squad was such a joke! They knew going in who would get a favor, because they knew the would need one at the next stop in the circuit

For the same reasons PB is hard to film as a sport, its impossible to ref like any other game too.
There is no stop of action, there is no reset to the previous position. While some minor infraction gets caught, something major can happen at the same time that doesnt get called and these things are usually game changers, I have lost games to this, it sucks.

Chris, got caught paying someone back, I got it, seen it done many times, been in tourny where we have had to put extra paint on someone myself not like that, but when the one shot dosnt work, and you know its not going to work, you make sure the cheater has enough goo on him that he knows its not worth the penalty or its painfull..

Non of this is right, but unless we are willing to play Laser tag, PB will never fully change, there is way too much money spend to win very little money back.

Sometimes I really wish I had all the money back that I spent on Tourny PB...
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:10 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Chris was an above average player, I sure as hell don't believe he's a "legend", but there are really only a handful of players I'd use that term to describe (myself being one of course, at least a legend in my own mind! :-) ). As far as playing since the early 80's, that's clearly an error.

I remember playing him for the first time at the last Dallas NPPL event when he was on Easy Company, a team Scotty Flint had started pre Avalanche, and Chris was horrible, even with their sideline help pointing out our field positions to them during the game, where if memory serves me correct, we won 8 bodies up.

I will say, he's definitely become full of himself in recent years, but he used to be a decent guy, relatively humble.
Actually Scotty Flint never played on Easy Co. he was a Colorado Bounty Hunter. I think he guest played for us a time or two but that was it. Once Easy Co became the Aves then Scotty joined the team. As for Chris being a bad player back then.... Nope he single handedly took out Shock with WGP sniper (PUMP) vs Vu's Autococker toting Shockers, got punched in the face, then shot in the maskless face by one of those jack asses who was later "protected" by the (pros) refs and ALL involved who called it a draw. Why, because we made one maybe two events a year and Shock could afford the full tour.

Steve; no bad blood that's just the way I see it, if it were me vs the committee it would have gone down like this... Team cheats and gets caught, eliminated from contention, go home, see you when you can "play it straight!"
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to shoot nothing.

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Old 05-18-2011, 05:37 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Except for the rookie at the Pan-event. The one he sent to the hospital?
Chris Lasoya banned from Pan-Am

Also banned from the WPF, and suspended from the NPPL a few times.
By all accounts, a very good player, when all that matters is winning.

That might explain the total collapse of tournament paintball.
Every sport has its cowboys. You don't think the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL have ever suspended or fined players? He's a competitive athlete playing for money, glory and the general love of running out on the field blasting people with his team. He doesn't ALWAYS over shoot (I saw a video of him surrender an X-factor player instead of bunkering him, as he was standing directly behind him with his barrel pointed at the back of his head, and tapped him on the the shoulder) but it happens, deal with it.

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Said it before and I'll say it again

There is no excuse for it, no matter who it is or what they did blah blah blah.

It's unsportsman like conduct, period.
Chris does a good job at being the bad guy so that people like you don't have to worry about people like Kyle Stahl wiping 10 hits a game. You're welcome.

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It shows that a person is not in control of themselves, much like a child. A game is not a place to enact revenge, or for players to "regulate" on the field - that's the refs job. Don't like the way someone is playing, tell the ref. They don't do anything, complain to the management and let them know your taking your money elsewhere.
Have you been to a national event in the past 10 years? It doesn't work that way anymore. Too many people complaining and not enough people that care. Pretty much the reason why I hate the PSP.

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There you have it folks... Everything that is wrong with paintball today all summed up in one post.

The thought that you must regulate a field yourself, not the refs..., the idea that you must shoot someone in the back of the head multiple times, and that you must live with that idea, or get off the field and don't play.

I guess I'm done playing. Shut down the site, I've heard it all.
Sorry you're just now realizing other people are stuck doing your dirt for you. Blame irresponsible managers and employees that are running the fields or refereeing that don't care, not the people who are man enough to do something about it.

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The fact of the matter is as with any organized sports league, the league should make and enforce the rules, the players and teams follow the rules or go someplace else.
I agree completely. That's why I support local and regional leagues, as they provide an alternative to the teams that have been screwed by the NPPL or PSP, then brushed off when they voiced their complaint. These large leagues aren't cracking down on cheating like they should and there aren't as many qualified or dedicated refs as you'd want on the fields. When a team gets shafted, it's almost like they have to go look for a brick wall to talk to for 45 minutes so that nothing can come of it other than a waste of 45 minutes.

If teams were dealt with sternly for cheating, people like Chris wouldn't need to drop the hammer on the thugs because they wouldn't be allowed on the field in the first place!

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Carter - shut down the site and I'm camping on your porch in protest
So long as he's not sitting on his porch with a shotgun when we get there, I'm with you. I like this site, it's one of the last few websites that isn't run by a few different paintball company's advertising dollars.

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I’ve played tournaments too back in the day 84-86 and never saw this.
That was 6 years before today's best tournament player in the world was even born haha...


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
And I never saw anyone take justice into their own hands on the field in those years. And as a ref at Coram under Mike and John we did not tolerate any kind of nonsense from walk-ons or regulars, regular games or competitive games.
When you don't tolerate cheaters, nobody has to "do something about the cheater". Once again, the refs/management doing their job prevents the need for a vigilante.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
When you give respect, sometimes you get respect and sometimes you don’t. So when you don’t get respect back, instead of just walking away, you act like a thug and cause physical injury and pain to another person on purpose. For “respect”. So now paintball is akin to gang behavior.
No. You cause physical pain to someone on purpose when they're cheating and being a jerk and the field owner isn't doing anything about it. That's not gang behavior, that's being a man. Wussification of America. Since when was standing up for yourself or others "gang behavior"? If some guy is cheating all day, the field owner does nothing about it so you just pack up and leave and never come back, he's still there wiping hits for the rest of the day. Probably the next weekend too.

If you and 2 other people shoot him 20 times every game after that, who is the one is going to want to leave the field and not come back now? The guy that has a pepperoni pizza on his back side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
So what you are saying is instead of banding together and demanding and making changes you fed your money into a system that was corrupt and encouraged others to as well. Of the 2 choices – play a corrupt game and have to hurt others and risk being hurt myself or not play at all – option 2 seems the better of the option. The other option not mentioned is creating an honest, real league. Where rules are enforced and unsportsmanlike conduct is not rewarded but punished.
Well since option 3 involves starting your own paintball league I think it's safe to assume most people are going to go with option 1 or 2. I don't know about you, but I have more fun playing than working, which is why I choose to play at the local field instead of work there.

You guys need to realize how lucky you have it at the fields or tournaments where there aren't jerks. This isn't your father's PGP in the woods 15-man paintball anymore. Most tournament players are probably in the 16-29 age range (testosterone = through the roof) and are under some illusion that cheating, stealing, malicious overshooting and screaming at refs is somehow ok. Hence why at World Cup, you see the most thefts, wipes, bonus balls and arguments.

The next time you go to a field and don't have to tell a ref to watch someone, you don't have to walk around asking people if they'd seen something that was sitting next to your gearbag 5 minutes ago, you don't have to ask the owner to do something about the guy who won't stop overshooting newer players, make SURE to thank them at the of the day. Those fields are becoming the minority in the paintball world are getting harder and harder to find.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:11 PM   #47 (permalink)
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So willie... In short you're saying thank a ref for doing their job, but if the refs aren't then it's ok to do the "dirty work" as a player, since it's the refs or field managers that won't do the job, so you have to?

You know... Instead of taking your money elsewhere.

Frankly it's that do the dirty work mentality that needs to go, and those are the same folks I won't give any respect towards either. It's not your job. And if you're at a place that isn't doing their job (refs/field owners) then don't spend your money there.

There are plenty of tournment series, and I've been in some that are great and I will be back time and time again, and there are some you won't see me back at. That's the way it works.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:56 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I have a feeling Carter wanted to spice up the place so he posted LaSoya's name nice thread all.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:13 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Every sport has its cowboys. You don't think the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL have ever suspended or fined players? He's a competitive athlete playing for money, glory and the general love of running out on the field blasting people with his team. He doesn't ALWAYS over shoot (I saw a video of him surrender an X-factor player instead of bunkering him, as he was standing directly behind him with his barrel pointed at the back of his head, and tapped him on the the shoulder) but it happens, deal with it.

Exactly - they get fined and suspended, and lose sponsorships - the same should happen in paintball. This game will never be taken seriously as long as this kind of behavior is tolerated - on either side. And the above is evidence that he can control himself. I love running around and blasting people too. I have a great time when I play. But I won't play with cheaters and I won't play where the rules are not enforced and cheating tolerated. And I won't inflict pain on someone for cheating. They are cheating - you win cheating? You have not won anything - it's a fraud and a scam then and the win and trophy hold nothing. I don't get angry or feel the need to teach someone a lesson. I leave that to the parents and teacher of the children, some of whom have obviously not done a good job. I take my money and I find somewhere else to play

Chris does a good job at being the bad guy so that people like you don't have to worry about people like Kyle Stahl wiping 10 hits a game. You're welcome.

Please don't ever say that someone intentionally hurt some one for me. I don't worry about people like that because I won't play with people like that. I take my money and walk if something is not done.

Have you been to a national event in the past 10 years? It doesn't work that way anymore. Too many people complaining and not enough people that care. Pretty much the reason why I hate the PSP.

No I have not, because of what I see and hear. I don't need to see people giving a game I like a bad name.

Sorry you're just now realizing other people are stuck doing your dirt for you. Blame irresponsible managers and employees that are running the fields or refereeing that don't care, not the people who are man enough to do something about it.

No one is stuck doing the dirt for me. I do blame irresponsible managers and employees. And I blame the people who are "man" enough. Being man enough is walking off the field and not playing, not behaving like a child and going out to inflict harm on another person, that's behaving like a child, not a man.


I agree completely. That's why I support local and regional leagues, as they provide an alternative to the teams that have been screwed by the NPPL or PSP, then brushed off when they voiced their complaint. These large leagues aren't cracking down on cheating like they should and there aren't as many qualified or dedicated refs as you'd want on the fields. When a team gets shafted, it's almost like they have to go look for a brick wall to talk to for 45 minutes so that nothing can come of it other than a waste of 45 minutes.

If teams were dealt with sternly for cheating, people like Chris wouldn't need to drop the hammer on the thugs because they wouldn't be allowed on the field in the first place!

Exactly. However, and I have never met Chris or any of the other "PRO" players, except for Bea and Jessica, they could take the high road and be an example and a leader of elevating sportsmanlike conduct in the game. They are recognized names, they have influence. They could be a better examples. No matter what someone does, its a GAME, there is no call to purposely hurt someone in a GAME.

So long as he's not sitting on his porch with a shotgun when we get there, I'm with you. I like this site, it's one of the last few websites that isn't run by a few different paintball company's advertising dollars.

That was 6 years before today's best tournament player in the world was even born haha...

LOL


When you don't tolerate cheaters, nobody has to "do something about the cheater". Once again, the refs/management doing their job prevents the need for a vigilante.

Yes again - and take your money and walk, management will get the message when they close up because no one is playing at their field/event.


No. You cause physical pain to someone on purpose when they're cheating and being a jerk and the field owner isn't doing anything about it. That's not gang behavior, that's being a man. Wussification of America. Since when was standing up for yourself or others "gang behavior"? If some guy is cheating all day, the field owner does nothing about it so you just pack up and leave and never come back, he's still there wiping hits for the rest of the day. Probably the next weekend too.

So your playing a GAME and someone cheats and you hurt them? Didn't your mom or school teachers teach you to just walk away and not play with cheaters? And when the cheating child is all alone and no one plays with him, he doesn't get it? I have much more respect for a team/player that refuses to play because of poor reffing, cheating, etc. than a team/player that sinks to that level of play. Wussification? Being a man? it's a GAME, this behavior is typical of children playing a game, not men. Nothing about being a man ever consists of going out and hurting other people. That's a child. Standing up for your rights and what you believe in is one thing. Hurting other people for cheating at a GAME is another.


If you and 2 other people shoot him 20 times every game after that, who is the one is going to want to leave the field and not come back now? The guy that has a pepperoni pizza on his back side.

You are worse than the cheater in this case. He cheated at a GAME, you intentionally went out of your way to hurt someone. For cheating at a GAME.


Well since option 3 involves starting your own paintball league I think it's safe to assume most people are going to go with option 1 or 2. I don't know about you, but I have more fun playing than working, which is why I choose to play at the local field instead of work there.

You guys need to realize how lucky you have it at the fields or tournaments where there aren't jerks. This isn't your father's PGP in the woods 15-man paintball anymore. Most tournament players are probably in the 16-29 age range (testosterone = through the roof) and are under some illusion that cheating, stealing, malicious overshooting and screaming at refs is somehow ok. Hence why at World Cup, you see the most thefts, wipes, bonus balls and arguments.

High school and collegiate and professional athletes are in that same age bracket. They manage to control themselves, with few exceptions and those that display unsportsmanlike conduct get punished for it. If your going to promote the sport then you need to act and behave in a sportsmanlike mannner and be a good example and promote the good aspects of the sport, not contribute to criticism of it. And I am not lucky - I've played at plenty of crappy fields - once. Me and my wallet left and went elsewhere as did others. EMR and Oxford Paintball being two fields that have excellent reffing. And I started playing when I was 20 and most everyone who played was 20 - 50 and everyone seemed to be able to control themselves. And that is why World Cup is pointless - it's a cheaters tournament. Not a best team tournament.

The next time you go to a field and don't have to tell a ref to watch someone, you don't have to walk around asking people if they'd seen something that was sitting next to your gearbag 5 minutes ago, you don't have to ask the owner to do something about the guy who won't stop overshooting newer players, make SURE to thank them at the of the day. Those fields are becoming the minority in the paintball world are getting harder and harder to find.

Yes they are. But that's why I and others are selective where I play now a days.

you missed two important ones

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool View Post

Would you play baseball, football, basketball, tennis, or anything for that matter knowing the refs and umpires were working against you? Instead of walking and creating a league that discouraged the kind of behavior we see and hear about, you choose to become one of those who continue unsportsmanlike like behavior and acceptance of this behavior. Instead of taking the high road of mature responsible sportsmanlike play you’ve chosen to take the low road and act just like those who cause the problems and to perpetuate unsportsmanlike like behavior to win a game – seems very childish.

It’s not paintball’s refusal/inability to put real referees on the field and to enact real sanctions against deserving players. It’s the players acceptance of this and their feeding of money into this system. If you feed a pig **** and it eats the ****, why spend money on giving it real food when it is perfectly happy eating ****.
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