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Old 07-30-2012, 12:59 PM   #61 (permalink)
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i am excited for these. Sounds like the ideal stock class ball. That is if they aren't pulling shens
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Old 07-30-2012, 01:05 PM   #62 (permalink)
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(this might already have been brought up) about the weight concern, which most of us serious guys have brought up in discussion: the 2.8 gram paint may not fly as far, but it will shoot higher velocities than heavier paint, so efficiency in stock class markers will be superior. Also, people are saying the paint will bounce on a drop test but breaks extremely well on target... I wonder if it will also be more resistant to breakage in a high pressure/SC gun chronoed at 300 FPS? Very interested to try this stuff for those two reasons. reduced range is a fair trade for excellent consistency and efficiency.

(also, it's very fair to assume that in time, Hydrotec may produce a heavier round by using higher density additives in the fill, I think that would be a popular next step along with the obvious move to a reduced cost product for field grade use)

edit: also... .686 size... glad to see they didn't try to go right down to .680.
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:03 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
He tried. According to Tom Kaye, they didn't make enough of a difference for players to pay the .13/ball for them. I add that ROF and ammo capacity increases made the .02 ball that much more appealing.
I'm fairly certain the Perfect Circle rounds were difficult to fill & assemble. Whereas these, due largely to the fill, are easily automated and therefore cheap to produce.

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Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
(this might already have been brought up) about the weight concern, which most of us serious guys have brought up in discussion: the 2.8 gram paint may not fly as far, but it will shoot higher velocities than heavier paint, so efficiency in stock class markers will be superior. Also, people are saying the paint will bounce on a drop test but breaks extremely well on target... I wonder if it will also be more resistant to breakage in a high pressure/SC gun chronoed at 300 FPS? Very interested to try this stuff for those two reasons. reduced range is a fair trade for excellent consistency and efficiency.

(also, it's very fair to assume that in time, Hydrotec may produce a heavier round by using higher density additives in the fill, I think that would be a popular next step along with the obvious move to a reduced cost product for field grade use)

edit: also... .686 size... glad to see they didn't try to go right down to .680.
I voiced concern the second day it was announced over on Punkworks and they still act as though paintball weight is only an issue with 50cal.

It's very similar to the 50 cal performance concerns actually.

Less weight not only equates to less range, but also makes the round more susceptible to cross winds and reduces potential break energy. Hopefully the 'new' shell is more fragile or the fill somehow compensates for the reduced break energy.

No one knows of Hydrotec's consistency or accuracy anymore than they know what it will cost. Based on my experiences with perfect circle rounds I'm betting it performs worse.

A lighter ball is NOT a more efficient ball. True, you'll get more shots shooing a 2.8g ball at 290fps than a 3.0g at 290fps. Although that's apples and oranges. A better comparison is 280fps with 3.0g. That's the SAME efficiency while getting BETTER performance (with 3.0g paint).

The player benefits of this paint have yet to be tested (accuracy, consistency).

The drawbacks are known from the light weight (more susceptible to cross winds, less break energy)

The field owner benefits are huge and obvious. (to those of us who own and inquired about the terms... even more so).

My questions...

-If this is a boon for field owners like falling paint prices a few decades back.. Wouldn't the same thing happen? A sudden increase in poorly run fields?

-If the field owner benefits ALONE cause it to become ubiquitous... doesn't that just encourage spray-n-pray techniques?
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
I'm fairly certain the Perfect Circle rounds were difficult to fill & assemble. Whereas these, due largely to the fill, are easily automated and therefore cheap to produce.
Rounds made by perfect circle (i.e. Pepperball) are made under an automated process (shells are assembled and then the fill is injected). They also sell shell halves for custom, hand assembly by the end user. The cost of production is related to the time required, the relatively low count runs, the custom shell material and, the custom assembly machinery.

Hydrotec uses a commercial shell material and a custom fill material. So, why do you think they've been so late to getting this product in even a limited number of customer's hands? I'm guessing either a lack of investment or, manufacturing problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E
I voiced concern the second day it was announced over on Punkworks and they still act as though paintball weight is only an issue with 50cal.
Given that I'm adjunct member of the Punkworks team, and that they (Bryce and Cockerpunk) turn to me for External Ballistics calculations, I can say with certainty that they understand the ballsitic performance issues associated with the higher caliber/lower density round. Here are numbers I've posted previously over there:

.683, 3g DXS Silver ball
Maximum Range: 94 Yards
Angle for Max Range: 26 Degrees
Terminal Energy: .453FtLb

.686 2.62gram Ball:
Maximum Range: 86yards
Angle for Max Range: 25deg
Terminal Energy: 0.348FtLb

.686 3.5gram Theoretical ball (ASTM max weight):
Maximum Range: 104yards
Angle for Max Range: 27deg
Terminal Energy: 0.613FtLb

Their resistance to wind, time of flight, drop, and impact energy charts all scale similarly to how the above numbers scale. Those charts can be viewed here and here.

What nobody knows is how fragile the rounds are. That would allow for a direct comparison to put the impact force in perspective. For example, are hydrotec rounds ~23% more fragile, thereby making up for the ~23% difference in impact energy at a given range. Theoretically, it could be that Hydrotec rounds are fragile enough that they break more often than the heavier ball at extended ranges.

My personal question about these rounds pertain to the shell material. With FS rounds and they higher ridigity and fragility, when they break, the edges of the broken shell can be somewhat jagged that combined with the rigidity, leads to a slightly higher amount of skin cutting/scratching on impact to bare skin(extremely minor in my opinon). I wonder how hydrotec's shell performs in this regard.

As far as hydrotec ronds encouraging spray and pray, I would say so if the cost was cheaper than current FPO prices. Simply put, the constraints of a limited weight, spherical projectile will always suck enough that accuracy through volume will be be the easiest means of getting an elimination.
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Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
The field owner benefits are huge and obvious. (to those of us who own and inquired about the terms... even more so).

My questions...

-If this is a boon for field owners like falling paint prices a few decades back.. Wouldn't the same thing happen? A sudden increase in poorly run fields?

-If the field owner benefits ALONE cause it to become ubiquitous... doesn't that just encourage spray-n-pray techniques?
Could you elaborate? As a field owner, I'm not sure about the obvious benefits. Longer storage capability will be a benefit (if the hype is true), but since cashflow won't allow me to buy more than one or two skids at a time anyway (we're a relatively small field), it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:19 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
...
So, why do you think they've been so late to getting this product in even a limited number of customer's hands? I'm guessing either a lack of investment or, manufacturing problems.

Obviously I can't comment on the why since I have no first hand experience with either process. Although given that Paul is claiming comparable prices with 'attractive' margins to field owners, I think we can easily say the Hydrotec process results in a significantly cheaper product than anything Tom Kaye tried. My hat's off to them there.

Why do I think they haven't released small volumes to the public for test, review and general PR? No idea. Maybe because they didn't want real testing to show it is a poor performer before they started selling product. Maybe because they were not prepared for the production problems that popped up and are still scrambling to get product out the door. Maybe their investors require them not to release any samples until the product is rolling off the line (common).


Given that I'm adjunct member of the Punkworks team, and that they (Bryce and Cockerpunk) turn to me for External Ballistics calculations, I can say with certainty that they understand the ballsitic performance issues associated with the higher caliber/lower density round.


They are gradually understanding the importance, but still don't fully appreciate it IHMO. Recommendations for measuring average ball mass were claimed to be pedantic early on. I noted the degree to which a paintball's mass fluctuates and about a dozen tests later average paintball mass only shows up on the standard efficiency test as 'optional' data. (BTW it's as easy as weighing a bag and dividing by the ball count). They are forming hypothesis while the mass data could completely change the results.


Here are numbers I've posted previously over there:

.683, 3g DXS Silver ball
Maximum Range: 94 Yards

.686 2.62gram Ball:
Maximum Range: 86yards

If I can make a suggestion for those charts... Use a logarithmic scale. Only the extremes are easily viewable.

What nobody knows is how fragile the rounds are. That would allow for a direct comparison to put the impact force in perspective. For example, are hydrotec rounds ~23% more fragile, thereby making up for the ~23% difference in impact energy at a given range. Theoretically, it could be that Hydrotec rounds are fragile enough that they break more often than the heavier ball at extended ranges.

As I stated earlier, I hope this is the case. Due to what the fill is, I can see how it would react differently to different targets.

e.g. Traditional paint might break on a wood plank at 20fps and a soft mouse pad at 40fps... while the Hydrotec breaks on the wood plank at 10fps, but requires 50fps to break on the soft mouse pad.


My personal question about these rounds pertain to the shell material. With FS rounds and they higher ridigity and fragility, when they break, the edges of the broken shell can be somewhat jagged that combined with the rigidity, leads to a slightly higher amount of skin cutting/scratching on impact to bare skin(extremely minor in my opinon). I wonder how hydrotec's shell performs in this regard.

Very good point.

As far as hydrotec ronds encouraging spray and pray, I would say so if the cost was cheaper than current FPO prices. Simply put, the constraints of a limited weight, spherical projectile will always suck enough that accuracy through volume will be be the easiest means of getting an elimination.

That's why I placed ALONE in bold. Assuming it was the SAME price as today's FPO, yet performed slightly worse and it's only redeeming quality was that the field owners saw a larger margin.... I can see most field owners only stocking 'high end' traditional paint ..and Hydrotec. Volume on traditional paint drops, high end gets more expensive, those shooting the Hydrotec get shot frequently by those who can afford the good stuff. Chineese knock-offs start producing even worse performing 'White box Hydrotec'. I'm sure they're already trying to figure out how they can half-*** it with existing tooling.
Horizon,

As I understand it, you have a unique business model? More quality versus quantity so-to-speak? Maybe you would see no benefits.

P.S. Personally I would love to see more fields that are rental only with one brand of paint. Everyone on the same level completely eliminates any concern over caliber, weight, ROF, ramping, etc. Not every field mind you, just a few here and there geared to the beginner who doesn't mind waiting a few weeks for a group to build up.... or those of us who got busy with life.

Last edited by P0E; 07-30-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:22 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Patent US7905181 - Bioluminescent paintball - Google Patents

I bet it is a carboxy methyl cellulose suspension in a PLA or carageenan shell. THe patent is relatively weak. neat idea, too bad it didn't work out to make a biolumenescent paintball so they had to use the tooling for something else.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:40 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Can't wait to give these a shot.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:57 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Found this
Hydrotec Paintballs in action - YouTube
It is short but it appears to mark a rather large area compared to the normal ball. Anxiously awaiting full review from the poster.
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i think you will be fine. Fed Ex was always good to me until my wifes dog bit the driver. they usually don't avoid you unless they have a reason.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:35 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P0E View Post
Volume on traditional paint drops, high end gets more expensive, those shooting the Hydrotec get shot frequently by those who can afford the good stuff.
That's a maybe. If volume on high end traditional paint drops. It's going to sit on the shelf longer, go stale, and shoot crappy as well.
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