General

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by stevedavidson

there were huge fights - both verbal and physical - over the issue of copycatting and folks were even more up in arms (as a community) over that then they are now over patents.

I also mentioned the "good ole days", but you are right. I do remember the Idema fight, and the PMI/Sheridan battles. Everyone copied Colin, and Chauncey. Long before BT, Tippmann employees quit to form there own knockoff companies. Endless Bushmaster clones (Bloodsucker, Razorback, REb, etc)

The owners of Montneel told me they were powerless to stop companies making clones since they did not have any patents or useful trademark protection.

And thats what it comes down to. People that make a living from paintball "engineering" need a certain amount of protection to protect there inventions. I think we all understand that.

The issue here is that lately it seems that companies are fighting over intellectual property they don't seem to really own. A couple years ago Kingman sued PMI over the Pirahna blowbacks. They claimed PMI copied Kingman, but how is that possible when Kingman itself copied ICD to make the Spyder?

Or people hated SP for sueing WDP over a patent that they had no part in creating. But nobody blinked when WDP got there own named added to the patent, which they also had no part creating.
Or when Dye sued SP over the ION, because of the Omega patent. Pretty original to sue SP over an electro, using a patent for a mech gun that was never made, and they were involved in the patent.

Its a darker side of paintball. I think the difference now is its actually preventing guns from being made. In the old days, like you said, nobody bothered getting expensive patents, so nobody had any power to stop copycats.
Now you have many companies that stopped making electros because of SP, and others that stopped making pneu-triggers because of PTP, and so on.

nick

[Brewtt]

Originally Posted by stevedavidson

Take your pick. One model leads to anyone with money and overseas manufacturing bringing the majority of products to the market, the other model leads to people who at least seem to care about paintball bringing the majority of product to the market.

Well, considering this crap/model already stopped Rainman from doing his own personal pneu-mag conversions (someone who cares about the paintball community and has been bringing his skills to market) I'd say this model sucks already and is the wrong direction to head. Just another big guy crushing the little guy. I reiterate: Anyone who thinks this outcome is good for the paintball community is a moron.

[wolf13]

Originally Posted by stevedavidson

Take your pick. One model leads to anyone with money and overseas manufacturing bringing the majority of products to the market, the other model leads to people who at least seem to care about paintball bringing the majority of product to the market.

for me, as a completely and utterly bored with modern paintball consumer, the choice is simple. Right now, how much of the industry has manufacturing oversees anyway, how much of it is actual owned by people who care about the sport rather then making thier buck and their own little power trips (tournament teams, their own little empires, actually, not much has changed for some of em)? Nobody booed when WDP got their name on the patent, because everyone realized it was the best shot to reign SP back in, even if just a little. yeah, it wasn't all friendly in the old days (heck, like you said, there were some good knock down drag out fights), but the average player benefited in the end by having choices. good products won out and bad products died, welcome to true free market action. As I said, the little guys have no future as little guys in this game, and the big guys don't have a reason to change things. just because its the way things are, and nothing we can do is going to change it; doesn't mean we have to like it or not wish it was different.

[wolf13]

Originally Posted by Brewtt

. I reiterate: Anyone who thinks this outcome is good for the paintball community is a moron.

or has a vested interest in preserving the status quo

[Daiba]

Originally Posted by wolf13

or has a vested interest in preserving the status quo

Funny thing is, the only people who have the money to lobby the politicians to change the status quo are...the status quo.

I used to be pretty active in a number of political movements (a lot of which were concerned with IP legislation) until I realized this. Maybe I'll overcome my apathy and try to do some good again, but for now I'm just coasting.

[stevedavidson]

well, from the (former) inside, and in my opinion, you have mischaracterized Pro-Team.

They are far from a megolithic paintball company.

What they are is a company that spent their own dollars to help improve the sport in whatever manner presented itself that looked like a good idea with proper motivations, and who were then roundly taken advantage of by many out there.

They don't manufacture anything overseas - and never did - except the imports from the branded Armson line, which was from South Africa and then the UK; then they bought the company and brought it to the US.

The patents obtained by PTP were, initially, purely defensive in nature. One strategy was figuring that if PTP had counter-technology to something that others were being beat up over, they would have an alternative from someone who wasn't interested in putting a licensee out of business.

In fact, much of the original IP they obtained was brought directly to companies that "used" to be the "good guys" - folks like AGD and WGP. This, even despite the fact that othes would have paid more money to obtain that IP for the express purpose of keeping it out of other peoples' hands.

HPL & Brewtt - it was NOT PTP that stopped others from making pneu-triggers. They have not issued a single C&D or letter regarding it to anyone - not companies and not individuals. Those folks who stopped making their versions did so either out of their own respect for the patents or because they wanted to avoid possible future issues or because someone other than PTP said something to them.

When I started working at PTP (ten+ years ago), I arrived into a scene of chaos; PTP had just spent several years and tens of thousands of dollars (that they could ill-afford) on product development and ended up with nothing to show for it because other folks had taken advantage of them. In addition, they were being served with C&Ds from other companies telling them they had to stop making product THAT THEY INTRODUCED TO THE INDUSTRY. Legal bills for that were additional tens of thousands of dollars.

There were only two options available at the time (other than the 3rd one of simnply closing up shop): getting bought by someone who wanted to acquire PTP's expertise and know-how, or playing the game that everyone else was playing and I'll tell you this and won't make any apologies for it at all: one thing I learned (the hard way) on the tournament field was that if you aren't playing by the same rules the others guys are playing by, you're going to LOSE.

It was a STATED goal of PTP's IP program that: they would only be used defensively, they would not be used to beat people up, that we would offer reasonable, competitive and 'fair' licensing agreements and that we would not waste our time on fallacious patents or ones that covered existing technologies.

We TRIED, very hard, to sway the USPTO to our way of thinking, which was that paintball technology was NOT its own separate universe, but in fact drew from a whole slew of other disciplines (pneumatics, ballistics, firearms, electronics, etc., etc.) - but we weren't successful in getting them to see our point of view: new field of invention means more patents means more fees for the PTO.

We fought, at PTPs expense, numerous patent issues that were fallacious; we did lots of research, submitted many position papers, provided examples of prior art to numerous folks in the industry during this fight, and unfortunately we lost. But it wasn't for not trying.

[Brewtt]

Originally Posted by stevedavidson

HPL & Brewtt - it was NOT PTP that stopped others from making pneu-triggers. They have not issued a single C&D or letter regarding it to anyone - not companies and not individuals. Those folks who stopped making their versions did so either out of their own respect for the patents or because they wanted to avoid possible future issues or because someone other than PTP said something to them.

The text I highlighted in bold is exactly right.

This lame patent has already shutdown people out of FEAR of future litigation, etc. Effectively doing the same thing that a CAD letter would do as the end result is the same. So effectively it absolutely WAS PTP who unintentionally/INTENTIONALLY stopped "others" from making their own versions that they were happily making BEFORE this stupid patent stuff came along.

Which, in my opinion, sucks big fat balls for the paintball community. You've made my point. Big guy crushing little guy. This whole thing blows... simple as that.

[Christian Nelson]

Why not wait and see what happens?

I mean, we've waited this long, what's another year or two?

I actually do have an axe to grind, I was saving up to have Rainman do a pneumag for me. He was all set to do one this summer, and I realized I just didn't have the cash to justify it right then, and was saving up to get it done.

Even with all that, I am not that mad, because I can still do it myself, for myself if I really want to. If PTP isn't gonna go after the little guy, Rainman may start doing it again.

If PTP releases a product, that is reasonably priced (around $100) I think they will make a killing.

The idea of making the trigger frame for blowbacks, and for other guns is really cool.

We may see events banning electros all together, and you won't have people able to use cheat codes with this system. It may be a real nice future.

Just wait and see.

They still can't make you not build it to use for your own fun.

A combination of off the shelf parts isn't what is being patented as far as I can tell (I don't think you actually can patent that) so using the parts that are already out there, and available shouldn't be a problem.

As near as I can figure it, this patent is more of a protection from VL or whoever from just building Spyder knockoffs with pnuetriggers, when PTP may want to get into the after market production of such a device.

Similar to the guys who built the JAM bolt, and now we have all sorts of antichop bolts for the spyder and so forth. Did the guys who were the first to do widespread production of this device payed at all when Kingman simply said, wow, people are buying those to put on our guns, we should make them too?

I will wait and see.

I wonder if Rainman would just mill and drill the gripframe for you to mount the pneumatic switch yourself?

[shartley]

This thread proves what I have known for a long time… the majority of paintball players don’t know a thing about what is legal or what is not. They also do not care. What they care about is if it affects their ability to get what they want, or THINK they want (most of the time they would not BUY it anyways, but since it is not available they cry about it). And they really don’t care about the legal process only that the “big guys” don’t take advantage of it, the little guys or their friends are quite alright though.

I bet most paintball players don’t realize how many illegal products are out there in the paintball world. I see, for instance, grip maker after grip maker using images I would bet they don’t have legal permission to use in their products. I see “jewel” makers doing the same thing. I see similar things in the soft goods market.

But do players care? No. As long as these laws are being broken by “little guys” and “people they like”, it is okay by them. I have seen entire businesses built around illegal products and even if the entire playing public knows this it is fine with them. And if you point it out YOU are the bad buy. If you report it to the legal rights owners YOU are the bad guy. If in some way the illegal products are removed from the market the ones who removed it are the bad guys, not the ones breaking the law.

Now heaven forbid if a large company follows the LAW and they benefit from it. If players don’t like the outcome or who makes the money THAT is what matters, not if something is legal or not.

And paintball players seem to follow the thought process that success is great and they wish the small guy all the best, but if that small guy does what is needed (and LEGAL) to be a success once they ARE and they are no longer small, SHAME ON THEM!!!!!! They are now the bad guy and evil. They also are not good for the sport. Let’s forget that products are still affordable to the masses and the prices are fairly reasonable. Let’s forget that we have never seen a player NOT be able to get good equipment at a wide range of prices from the dirt cheap to the super expensive.

We long for “the good old days”, yet fail to realize they never were. There were always problems. There were always disputes and businesses came and went. But the real difference is that in the “old days” we saw most businesses dong things that we know would have gotten them shut down or have their business fail if in any other industry. We shook our heads and continued on, playing the game.

We now live in an age where the internet makes things seem as if they are the issues of everyone, and everyone has an opinion on matters. Most of the time those opinions however are meaningless and do nothing one way or the other to change the reality of things. But folks just like shaking their fists at the moon. “I told THEM!” they shout as they move on to another forum or topic.

And what is even more comical is that people would have a heart attack if they knew that far worse happens every day in all the other industries that REALLY affect their lives. From the razor they use to shave in the morning, to the TV they watch the news on, to the car they drive to work in, or the clothes they put on…. each product and industry that it belongs to has drama and they play the game of business. It is not always nice. It is not always friendly. And in reality it is war. There are rules which govern that war, but those rules don’t hinge on feel good solutions or popularity. Businesses take hits, and even die. Products are in dispute every day and products fail to hit the market for one reason or another.

But the real difference is that most other industries don’t have a “following” like paintball does. And that is because paintball is a GAME. I honestly think that for some the drama of thinking they are somehow involved with the “business” of paintball and what they say matters is more important than going out and having a good time playing the game. Are you a consumer or a player in the BUSINESS of paintball? It is one thing to be informed, it is yet another to do noting more than end up being a bunch of hens.

And what is worse is the hypocrisy exhibited by most. Where is the outrage when we see so many illegal products? These are being made and sold RIGHT NOW! Yet folks want to complain about a product that is NOT being sold, and frankly does not need to be. Let’s all grab our pitchforks and storm the castle!!!!! The evil King within is preventing us from getting a product! But let’s turn a blind eye to all the illegal products being made and sold by the small vendors we pass on our way to the castle gate……..

Sorry if this is long and rambling, but come on folks. Paintball players seem to have some messed up priorities and double standards….

[Schmitti]

Great example is the "pee on" image with Calvin.. not licensed at all.. yet you see it everywhere!!!

Anyways.

E