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Old 11-05-2013, 09:37 AM   #661 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by leathalh View Post
All I know is that the Dam bolt is proprietary. It may look more like a rail bolt than a Dm but that may just be a case of the fact that it doesn't have an lpr.

Mickey have you tried tuning your dwell, it got me an extra 20 fps and smoothed out the velocity a lot.
No I haven't adjusted the dwell, something I've been meaning to do. So you raised or lowered your dwell? Generally people try to lower their dwell but with the dam people are raising it, right? I know dwell has to do with air efficiency; how much air is released for each shot. Would raising or lowering the dwell have any effect on how hard/easy the bolt is on paint?

My main problem is paint breakage. I just got it back from dye for the second time, they may have done some board adjustments. But they did put in the newest bolt design. Like I said above it did help a little with paint breakage but now it leaks like the first one, where as the second bolt design I had no leaks but it would break a lot of paint. Still breaks too much paint. I should be having no breaks, the paint I use is hard shelled.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:02 PM   #662 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mickey_Kn0x View Post
I didn't believe it either until I compared the bolts. Pissed me off to no end, you pay that kind of money and they don't even bother to make a bolt for it. The dams bolt is nothing like a dm/nt bolt, its identical to the bolts in a rail/reflex, or was until they cam out with two different versions. There's actually three bolts for the dam now, and they still haven't gotten it right... I have all three. The third version all they did was modify the boost tube. Changed the air openings, shape and size. Helps a little bit with paint breakage but the solenoid pisses air like it did with the first one.

Just use google, or you can compare the bolts on dyes website. Just go to accessories and then make your marker selection.
Okay, I cannot find a good picture of the DAM bolt removed from the marker and broke down into it's parts. I have found the following on Dye's site (why don't they have at least the 2013 markers on there?):

DM11 bolt:


Reflex 2011 bolt:


Rail 2011 bolt:


DAM bolt (Dye didn't have a section to order parts for the DAM like the others):


It seems to me the length of the bolt, these ports and their placement are more in line with the Rail/Proto bolts than the DM bolts:


Is this the "Rail bolt" feature that everyone talks about? What are the differences in putting these ports on the bolt than the case that goes around the bolt? (I really could use some help with this terminology when it comes to spools...)

I ask because it looks like the Billy Wing bolt for the DM series DOES have those ports like the DAM. The difference being that the "thicker" part of the bolt is longer and the o-rings are in the middle of that thick part rather than the rear of it.



Also, I note the...barrel (the small barrel shaped part at the back of the bolt that has two o-rings on it...) is larger on the DM than the others. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the DM is the only one that has an LPR as well?
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Last edited by Robotech; 11-05-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:37 PM   #663 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mickey_Kn0x View Post
No I haven't adjusted the dwell, something I've been meaning to do. So you raised or lowered your dwell? Generally people try to lower their dwell but with the dam people are raising it, right? I know dwell has to do with air efficiency; how much air is released for each shot. Would raising or lowering the dwell have any effect on how hard/easy the bolt is on paint?

My main problem is paint breakage. I just got it back from dye for the second time, they may have done some board adjustments. But they did put in the newest bolt design. Like I said above it did help a little with paint breakage but now it leaks like the first one, where as the second bolt design I had no leaks but it would break a lot of paint. Still breaks too much paint. I should be having no breaks, the paint I use is hard shelled.
My understanding of dwell is that dwell affects how long the "valve" stays open. (using blowback terms here. LOL) So if you up your dwell the "valve" stays open allowing a larger volume of air into the bolt.

I DO know the two things that affect paintball velocity are air pressure, air volume, and the speed at which the valve goes from closed to open (if the marker has an actual valve. With solenoids I think they "open" and "close" almost instantaniously so it's a non-issue). Increase either volume or velocity and the paintball moves faster but you use more air. More pressure means you hit the ball with more "speed"...volume means you're hitting the ball with more mass. Either would contribute to paint breakage.

If people were having issues getting their DAM's to chrono up to field limits and they couldn't raise their pressure any higher without the solenoid leaking then raising the dwell would increase their velocity but only to a point. If the dwell is set so high that the ball is passing the first set of ports in the barrel while the solenoid is still open, it's just going to dump that extra volume of air into the atmosphere and not propell that ball any faster. (Note, this is a very simplified verson of how volume affects velocity of a paintball...)

But good lord I still have a lot to learn on Spools.
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Last edited by Robotech; 11-05-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:54 PM   #664 (permalink)
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Factory setting is 20. Mine is tuned to 11 after following the instructions. It went from 280 to 300 after tuning and the consistency improved massively as well. Its pretty simple and well worth it.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:08 PM   #665 (permalink)
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You turned the dwell down and velocity went up? I'll have to try adjusting mine.

I guess the main difference is the lpr. Which I don't understand because the reg on a dm and the reg on a dam operate at the same pressure. So how exactly does that work? And why not put the lpr in the dam, when its considered a high end marker?

I tested out my dam again yesterday, after I cleaned up the paint and re-lubed. Fired one two shots in semi, and right away another break. Then, another, and another. At that point I'm just pissed off, turn it to full auto and let er rip, surprisingly no breaks. Anyone have any theory as to what is happening. This may sound counter intuitive, but If were to raise the bps on my dam to better match the speed of the rotor do you think this could help and prevent breaks. I mean what if the bolt is just moving to slow for the rotor and there working against each other. Just wanted to see if you guys think that makes any sense...

Last edited by Mickey_Kn0x; 11-05-2013 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:09 PM   #666 (permalink)
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As I understand it, because the breach is so large to accommodate first strike rounds there have been some problems with a force feed loader pushing a ball in too far and ending up with a ball and a half in the chamber. This will cause the bolt to chop the half fed ball. Probably why it works on full auto, it's shooting too fast for the loader to push the ball too far forward and causing a "half feed" in the breach. Solution, turn down your Rotor"s tension and it should feed much better. I feed mine with a revvy which is just an aggitated hopper and have yet to have any problems on any firing mode.

And yes, turning down my dwell increased my velocity. I can't explain why because I am not an expert on spool valves at all. I just equate it to sweet spotting a cocker. Higher pressure can cause a drop in velocity, seems that a higher dwell can too. Dye sets them up with a high dwell from the factory so that they will shoot all over the world. Tuning your dwell for your area will make the marker much happier. BTW, a dwell of 11 is very un-Rail like.
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Last edited by leathalh; 11-05-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:09 AM   #667 (permalink)
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Most of the issues with the DAM have been fixed by the Gen2 bolt. Dye is replacing them free of charge. My whole team shoots DAMs and we saw a great increase in efficiency, reliability and usable velocity range with the new bolt.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:18 AM   #668 (permalink)
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Hmmm...ask and you shall receive?
Dye Dam Tactical Ironmen Bolt Kit

Just ordered it.....
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:20 AM   #669 (permalink)
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Even Billy will admit that the BW Bolt is mostly marketing.

I may be wrong but the rail/DAM is an unbalanced spool design vs the DM.
That meat on the back of the bolt behind the sail oring is what is air pressure is applied to.
Need to find the ZD animations to see the flow.


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Last edited by sniper nick; 11-06-2013 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:33 AM   #670 (permalink)
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I'm not too knowledgable on the internals of the Dam but, having tried to Qload my Woodstalker Ion in the past, and using a Tiberius for a couple years, I can easily see a couple problems for a marker like the DAM.

With a force feed magazine, a continuous pressure on the ball stack (while the mag is engaged) over time, can compress the balls to the point where the bolt clips the next paintball in the stack, fracturing it, and then when it's chambered to fire, it explodes down the barrel, fouling further shots.

With an electronic force feed system of any type (i.e. Rotor, Halo, etc), the continuous pressure is much lower but, if the feedstack geometry allows for the ball in the breach to roll forward or back, this will also allow for ball stack clipping.

As for the Dam being a derivative of the DM or the Rail/Reflex, I think part of the problem is probably folks talking past each other. Dye could be telling at least some truth if they say that the 'bolt' is similar or derived from the DM series. On modern spool valve guns, the term 'bolt' is getting blurred, is it just the tip? Is it just the forward-most moving component? Is it the engine overall? Without trying to actually physically measure the shapes and volumes of components I think it's really easy to determine the relationship:

Look at the DAM's solenoid and it's air paths to the engine. The ANSGear Dye Dam replacement parts kit includes a "Reflex Solenoid". The Reflex solenoid is a three-way (input, output, exhaust) unlike the DM's which have used four-ways (input, output1, output2, exhaust).
Three way solenoids only open and close a pressurized air path (the output). In the Rail, Reflex, and Ion designs, this pressurized air path is used to reset the bolt, and the fire chamber is used to move the bolt forward. These solenoids are typically more robust for a given size and, in paintball, they operate off of the same regulator as the fire chamber.

In DM and other balanced bolt designs, a four-way solenoid is used to route air to a forward position (for resetting the bolt) and, then to rearward position(for moving the bolt forward). These require a lower operating pressure, and a benefit of this arrangement is that by adjusting the pressure, your adjusting the speed/force with which the bolt moves.
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