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Old 02-13-2013, 07:33 PM   #171 (permalink)
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Russian Legion J4 in the SFT Shocker style, anyone?
Do-able, though we haven't setup the 'tube' for a cut out. Yet. We actually can have quite a bit of meat due to the way the gun is designed and ran. In addition short run bodies (50/100) are planned without a huge price increase.

As I read through the rest.... Hmm. Well, I think we posted a good return in the PBNation forum, so I will just wholesale and copy it here:

Quote:
The big two parts this offers is the self-timing and some simplicity. It is mostly just a new layout that might be the merge some people want. Shoot, we think it is cool. And it does shoot nice! Hey, a nice shooting gun that might have the right feel for some people might be all this it; I do think we have put enough thought into that to make it rugged.

We will be the first to say it is not the perfect gun for everybody. That is a strawman, and we are not setting this gun up to be something like that. We are not saying this will be easier than an Ego to take care of, is should be about the same, short of the LPR. It is going to be fairly light. That is what people should expect.

And we are not a big company - we are starting up. This will not be the 10th version of the gun. This will be generation 1 for production. Unlike some though, we have had running prototypes for over 8 years. The patent was filed 7 years ago, awarded over 3 years ago, the current internals we have been running with almost no change in design for 2 years. Now we are confident enough in our design to launch it.

The old adage is, you can have things Good, Fast, or Affordable. We didn't do this Fast. This is not a rushed design that had money thrown at it.

We are working manufacturing with a group of guys that have a history of making paintball equipment; they are not new to the industry either. We have been around helping other people bring product to market, doing upgrade parts, refining others for over 10 years while being store and field owners and related on and off since our first field over 17 years ago. We are ingrained with the industry.

We have taken our time, refined the design, improved it, simplified it, rebuilt and in the end what we are bringing to PBE is our first showing of the pre-production gun. Nothing more. Have you seen our motto?:

“Tech. Not hype.”

We really appreciate the excitement, the encouragement and overall well-being from the (we hope) future customers and the industry, even other manufacturers. But we are not going to set ourselves up like this gun is something that is anything like what is described above.

That would be suicide. This is a solid gun, tested over the long haul. We are not going to jinx it by making claims it is something it is not.

We feel this gun will speak for itself, that the technology we designed into it will be apparent, and welcomed. We don’t need to put this up on a shelf as if it is the ‘best-everything-ever-gun’. We don’t need to hype this to some crazy level to sell it. No need for anybody to put those words in our mouth.

We believe this will sell itself. That shooting it, tearing it down, and working with it every day the player will know and recommend this gun. That is how we will build sales. Not claiming that is it better than every gun before just because of an O-ring placed in the breech or the pressure it runs at or the slightly different airpath. We are not setting it out to be the greatest thing ever, and we don’t want and people buying our gun thinking it is shooting straighter just because of made up claims.

This gun will sell because we will build a good product that is simple and smart and works. If we don’t, we deserve to fail. We are in this for the long term, and we are going to act like it. We are setting up slowly, working on a good network, working to make sure we are intergrated with the industry.

Thanks guys! See you at PBE.
Any questions after that? Feel free to ask -
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:46 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Well Said!
looking forward to seeing this marker!
hope my dealer app. gets here soon
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:23 PM   #173 (permalink)
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One technical question: Will the gun come with a "shutter valve" (that closes the can while the bolt is upfront)? I think some of your drawings are with, some are without the dye-style valve.

Over all, I think the "shutter valve" is the mayor problem of all attempts to launch a new spooler. either new guns donīt have one or they are infringing one of the 3(?) standart designs (dye, md and pe). And you need one to get over 1300 shots per fill. In my eyes it would be a big thing if you are allowed to use it in your design. Or if the stacked tube design makes it unnecessary.


what I see as an advantage of the design is that it seems to be very slim. normal spools have fat butts because of the bolt sleeve. with this design the diameter of the lower tube is more or less undetermined. I prefer the sleek, straight design of for example the ego over the fat, bended design of typical spoolers. I think its better for aiming along the gun, especially when you play both, spool and rammer.

If you bring this to Germany I will definitely give it a shot.

Last edited by Tombola; 02-16-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:32 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tombola View Post
Over all, I think the "shutter valve" is the mayor problem of all attempts to launch a new spooler. either new guns donīt have one or they are infringing one of the 3(?) standart designs (dye, md and pe). And you need one to get over 1300 shots per fill.
...

If you bring this to Germany I will definitely give it a shot.
You'll see that Josh has a few tricks that make the "shutter" look as obsolete as it is. When he says the dwell is irrelevant, and will not affect efficiency, take this to mean that he doesn't need this "shutter" to get over 1300/fill.

I built something using his concept a few years back. I think I measured 350 shots on a 13/3k, and the velocity "seemed pretty good" to me. Even around 250fps, that's a mean shot count. If I ever do refine my prototype into a working system, it's thanks to Josh's input many years ago. But it's a slick system he uses.

Something else to note: The reason Matrix-based guns break down is the number of moving/movement o-rings *sharing a common axis*. Like the legs of a table, if you have too many and they don't line up just right, the table wobbles. However, it's impossible to make a 3-legged stool wobble. Similarly, 2 o-rings will always line up, 3 or more become a problem. If they don't line up perfectly, they rub unevenly in the bore and wear out faster. A Matrix can have between 5 and 19 seals on that common axis. Check out how many the Torque has...

... yeah, it'll last longer between rebuilds.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:21 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Will the gun come with a "shutter valve" (that closes the can while the bolt is upfront)?
Like FWNate said - the shutter is quite a different valve.

I have nicknamed it a 'Pressure Retention Valve.' There is nothing really in common with any existing spool valves, it is entirely new. Existing valve designs will not work in a stacked tube arrangement with a disconnected bolt. This really had to be something new.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:26 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
Existing valve designs will not work in a stacked tube arrangement with a disconnected bolt. This really had to be something new.
Yes and no:-) I see that in your design the air chamber sits somehow in front of the valve stem, what is impossible with regular spools because in front is where the shot goes.
therefore you can use this pressure to return the stem, while normaly in unbalanced spools you can only use it to move the stem forward.

I see that the Torque is using this layout, while your patent also covers a balanced design;-)


Have you tested both layouts? I mean, there is a reMARKable hint on your website that there is probably something in the pipeline

In my understanding poppets are that efficient because they have high backward acceleration on the ram. I guess that is what makes your design efficient too (relatively large surface on the stem, short dwell time..?).


flyweightnate: Very interesting information. I never thought about that, but it makes perfectly sense.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:27 AM   #177 (permalink)
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I built something using his concept a few years back. I think I measured 350 shots on a 13/3k,
I forgot to mention, while this uses some of the same action are in this concept, the airpath isn't as clean.

Quote:
Have you tested both layouts? I mean, there is a reMARKable hint on your website that there is probably something in the pipeline
Lets just say what Nate built is one of the two other really different designs we have planned.

We are really looking forward to bringing these guns out, there are some seriously fun designs.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:11 PM   #178 (permalink)
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cant wait to see
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:06 PM   #179 (permalink)
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After a few weeks of thought J4 Paintball has decided to delay the launch, but not the release of the J4 ‘Torque’ marker until we are satisfied with the end product. Currently, on review of the assembly we had a few questions on the connection strategy of the components and on layout for long term use. This comes from reviewing our current per-production version and finding a few items we are not content with.

We will still be at Paintball Extravaganza (PBE) with the marker, and have it ready for show. We will still let people see it and shoot it. We are going to show basic teardown and shooting videos along with allowing some testing of the current running platform, in addition to now being able to show off the internals and operation in full. The only parts changing are going to be in the body connections and some layout components, in addition to external look and ease in teardown. The internals, shooting action and components will remain as shown at PBE.

While this is not the outcome preferred, we want to make sure the product is something we are proud of before we produce it. We are doing this to set the standards of our products in the future. We want to make a good first impression.

In final: J4 Paintball will be releasing the ‘Torque’ in less than a week at PBE. We will not be launching it until we have the product we want to launch with, which should be very soon. Thank you for your patience and understanding, see you at PBE!
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:14 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Probably the best route you could have taken. Looking forward to feedback from those who try it out.
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